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Hurricane IId, 6 Squadron, leading edge wing stripe and some marking observations?


Troy Smith
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while looking for something else, see post of 6 Sq Mk.IV I was re-watching this film. 

 

 

and spotted something I've not seen noted,  more easily seen below, (an image often seen, and looks to be a still taken when the above film was made) and an image i have seen many times, but check the leading edges, a full span leading edge stripe, perhaps yellow (compare to prop tips) and not a wrap round of the camo,  it's clearly seen on at least one plane in the film, the first plane at 00.30 to 00.59, 

49770550873_84df7bfc92_b.jpgHurricane 6 sq leading edge stripe 1 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

a plane at 01.34, not the one below as it has the flying can opener on the cowl,  again at 02.00

49770551983_e724574b76_b.jpgHurricane 6 sq leading edge stripe 02.04 by losethekibble, on Flickr

the first plane is xx158, see 00.48,   also note lack or armour on the radiator bath.

 

also seen taxying out at 02.14, xP158 /JV-I ? 

49771409462_d97c5efc4f_b.jpgHurricane 6 sq leading edge stripe 02.14 xP158 by losethekibble, on Flickr

the JV is possibly red,  it's lighter tone than the black serial, while the plane behind, see below has light codes, and the JV code in front of the roundel, and the serial is on a dark patch

49771177946_4334439a21_o.pngHurricane 6 sq leading edge stripe 02.15  xP158 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

earlier still of 158

49770643893_c54fd9cecc_o.pngHurricane 6 sq xx158 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

EDIT - BP158 - 6SQ, 74 OTU, SOC 27.7.44

 

c8e6aae2c1f4c1efa9b70008809cc3b0.jpg

 

 

another with the stripe, but not the same as has badge

49757938813_90d6ddb95e_o.pngHurricane 6 sq tin opener by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

And I'll put a @tonyot , wondering if know anything about the stripe?   Flight leader? 

 

I'll put this in here, as it's a famous image,  and, again, looking again,  the variations 

 

large_000000.jpg

© IWM CM 4955

 

BP188/JV-Z,  we all know. white or grey JV, Z is often shown as red, but note the slight sheen, and does not match fin flash or spinner, possibly black?

 

JV - / BP134? note c type roundel (so newest) and slightly darker codes, and 'font' style. -

EDIT - the only IId that is BP13* is BP136, 6 sq, damaged by flak and force landed in desert, 29.10.42

PS EDIT  likely BP131, it look like a 1, and it also listed as a IID in production records. 

 

JV-X, codes all white or grey, very pale

EDIT FK Mason lists BP182 as 'X' in the 1962 book, and BP183 in the 1987 book, 5-42.

Air Britain has BP183 as a IIC going to 213 Sq, and BP183 going to 7 Sq SAAF.  More checking needed.

 

JV-Y,  JV is grey? (darker than JV-X) Y is black?

 

A thought, is 2nd plane perhaps JV-W? as the others are X, Y, Z,  and a flight?  

 

Regarding code colours, note the BP158 /JV-I (if that's right) has a pale I and possibly red JV ....? in the close up gun crank shot the serial is darker than the JV

 

perhaps @Seahawk  can get to his Air Britain books,  and have s serial poke about,  mine not easily accessible... 

 

if you go to the IWM site, it will supersize, and you can see the details better.  I'm sure I have seen serial tie up for the above, in one of my books...

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209066

 

Hope of interest,  I have found it fascinating.  Amazing what happens when you bother too look carefully.

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Codes could also be light blue, Sky, or even pale pink.  My money is not on the last one, but suspect not white.

 

The records for Hurricanes in the Far East were not perfectly kept.  I doubt that the  AB books will help a lot - except maybe for BP134.

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10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

perhaps @Seahawk  can get to his Air Britain books,  and have s serial poke about,  mine not easily accessible... 

But more accessible than mine, 200 miles away: afraid I am in durance vile for the duration.

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A thought; could the full width leading edge strip be a sand type colour to reduce the visible front of the Hurricane as it approaches the enemy?

Remember the Hurricane with the Italian type squiggle markings on the front for the possibly same reason?

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In the photo with the pilot posing holding one of the guns, would you say the front half of the airfilter is painted a lighter colour than the aft half and might be the same colour as the wing leading edge? or is it solely the effect of the sunlight striking the Hurricane?

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2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

A thought; could the full width leading edge strip be a sand type colour to reduce the visible front of the Hurricane as it approaches the enemy?

Remember the Hurricane with the Italian type squiggle markings on the front for the possibly same reason?

well, the "italian type markings"  have been discussed here on a few occasions,  and as best can be ascertained, aluminium paint with blue and purple squiggles...

people looking at B/W photos assumed that it was like the Italian paint. 

 

I'll edit in links when I find them.

EDIT - this was the description

Quote

"24/1/41 Took delivery of six Hurricanes, and aren't they beauties! The new type of mottled blue, grey and purple camouflage - on the nose, leading edges of wings and front surfaces - looks most peculiar".

witth details at:

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/jackson2.htm

But this has more links to other threads on the matter as well

 

 

I suggested a yellow stripe as these were used as an ID marking in NW Europe.

 

One other thought occurs,  perhaps leftovers from working up tests with the new type? 

 

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

In the photo with the pilot posing holding one of the guns, would you say the front half of the airfilter is painted a lighter colour than the aft half and might be the same colour as the wing leading edge? or is it solely the effect of the sunlight striking the Hurricane?

 

I think it's just from oil leaking. Note the leaks from the centre join of the filter.

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14 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

BP188/JV-Z,  we all know. white or grey JV, Z is often shown as red, but note the slight sheen, and does not match fin flash or spinner, possibly black?

Modelling orthodoxy says the Z is red, but I've never found that convincing because it doesn't match the red of the roundels or fin flash, which is why I included an insignia blue option in the decals I did for the Airfix Club 'Victory in the Desert' issue of the 1:72 Hurricane IID.

 

Black might be an alternative, but we'll probably never know.

 

Edited by 3DStewart
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2 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Can't really see anything in these colour photos.

I've seen these listed as being 7 Sq SAAF.    I need to dig out the Air Britain books and see what they say.....

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The captions for those photos:

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIDs of No 6 Squadron, Royal Air Force rolling out at Gabes soon after noon on 6 April 1943 for a tank-busting raid.

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIDs of No 6 Squadron, Royal Air Force rolling out at Gabes airfield soon after noon on 6 April 1943 for a tank-busting raid.

 

 

Of course, that's no guarantee that the captions are correct.

 

 

 

Chris

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On 14/04/2020 at 21:37, dogsbody said:

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIDs of No 6 Squadron, Royal Air Force rolling out at Gabes airfield soon after noon on 6 April 1943 for a tank-busting raid.

 

 

Of course, that's no guarantee that the captions are correct.

Indeed, as you said, you have added some correct captions.

 

one image floating about came of a private album (had a photo of the Spitfire Mk.Vb modefied for high altitude interception as well) 

 

175570085445236387.jpg

link to pic

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/images/aircraft/K/KW704.jpg

Which I have just noticed has the name 'Christine' under the exhausts.   

KW704/R

can't see if there are any squadron codes, but if the IWM pic is right, maybe 6 Sq stopped using them for a while? 

EDIT dug out AB books...KW704, 6 sq, Shot down by flak attacking tanks Sfax 7/4/43

 

Another one, said to end up with 6 squadron

Hawker-Hurricane-IId-Trop-RAF-6Sqn-Our-J

 

One of the Lady McRobert presentation aircraft, 'Our John' BN795.

The very small serial for what look like a new aircraft is unusual. 

AB - BN795, 6, 336, SOC 24.7.45

 

One final point, the IId is the rarest of the main Hurricane variants,  with 300 built, I read somewhere. 

 

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2 hours ago, dogsbody said:

From the IWM:

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.247231879.2075777

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.48419493.20757770

 

HV663/ U - 6 Sq, 71 OTU, SOC 

HW313/ S -  6 SQ, shot down by flak on anti tank sweep near Sfax, 6.4.43  (note photo is dated 6.4.43!) 

HV594 /P , 6 Sq, Missing on anti-tank sweep near Sfax, 6.4.43 

 

so, that means that R in the background is KW704, on max blow up at the IWM site,

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188531

you can just read 'KW7'  and the 'R' is the same 'font' as the pic above.

Also, we have both side of KW704, and it is not unreasonable that by this stage the individual letter only is aft the roundel.  The size differences of the letters are of note though.

The colour photos confirm these are white.

 

I'm very happy now that I bought all those Air Britain books!  Thanks @rossm

 

I rather chuffed with the above, and thanks to @dogsbody for posting up the colour shots,  I had them filed as 7 sq SAAF, and thus ignored them. 

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Hey, I can't build kit worth a crap, so if I can search out references for masters like you, I'm in! It's the least I can do.

 

That and be an annoying old git. That just comes naturally.

 

 

 

Chris

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was wondering if anyone here might be able to help me with this subject?

I had a very dear friend Reg ('Mack' was nickname)McKenzie who flew these Tank Busting Hurricanes with 6sqn.  I still vividly recall some of his stories.  He never told the family anything about his wartime service and came come and destroyed all his log books, uniform and photo's.  He said he tried to erase it from his life and move on.

 

However it has turned out that I was the only person known, who had spent countless hours listening to his stories (in his latter years, as he thought no one would be interested now days and seem keen to talk)also with 123 sqn and some other aircraft types he had flown. But he ALWAYS talked about the amazing rugged Hurricane, some stories of boredom between op's with hair raising stories of flying down streets of villages (with one wing dipped) to take shots at German armored divisions hiding in the town squares etc....just incredible!  When on 6 Sqn his regular mount was JV-X, and he always took off last to make sure all the boys were all safely up and good.  He always flew 'X' as he reckoned X marked the spot!  I built him a model of JV-X and visited a Hurricane being rebuilt at Air NZ for Tim Wallis, we became really good friends.

 

Anyway sadly  Reg (Reginald) developed Leukemia and slowly got sicker and we lost him.  Several years ago now..... and I still often think about him.  His family had asked me to help with information for them and the grandchildren to remember him.  I don't know how to research this, I have 'Googled'  his name and have never really found anything.

 

Can anyone out there help me to help his family?  He was a New Zealander

 

Cheers

Anthony 

 

 

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If you haven't, maybe get in touch with these folks.

 

You can look at squadron record books online and, at present, download copies for free.  Here's a good place to start (if the link does what it should).  I can help you if you need help navigating, but got to run right now.

 

bob

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55 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

If you haven't, maybe get in touch with these folks.

 

You can look at squadron record books online and, at present, download copies for free.  Here's a good place to start (if the link does what it should).  I can help you if you need help navigating, but got to run right now.

 

bob

Cheers bob

PS Edit - I now see you were replying to the post above.....

 

I did send 6 sq association an email, linking this thread, with no response.

And i did also  co-incidentally 'discover' the NA archives are allowing free downloads....  Just not got around to working out what I want...

 

@Anthony in NZ,  good suggestions from bob.  Not thought about checking the NA for the 6 sq ORB.  

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@Anthony in NZ, the RNZAF should have records of Macs service with them, at least before he went overseas & probably early training in Canada, Rhodesia, South Africa or where ever he did advanced training after his early training in NZ. It would be worth posting this request on WoNZ as well, Errol Martyn especially is likely to have info to share or at least suggest where to look, others may also chip in with useful stuff.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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Thanks guys!

 

REALLY  appreciate your help here.  I will go through these ORB's and then after that post on WoNZ (good idea Steve)

 

I will report back with what I come up with.  he trained in Canada.

 

Cheers and thanks guys!

Anthony

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Thanks guys!

I have found him in the 6 sqn ORB Early 44 at the National Archives. F/LT RG McKenzie

 

I even found out looking that he mostly flew KZ 187 'X' BUT.....he also flew KZ 321 'N' during April 44.  The neat thing about that, is that this plane is flying still!!

 

The family will be over the moon.  Thanks so much for the leads, he also flew KX 826 'R', KZ556 'B' and KZ555 'L' so far that I know.  My word you have to spend some hours in there!  He was posted to 5 METS. (Shallufa) on 8 May 44 to train up pilots for 6 sqn.  I will have to check out 123 sqn at some stage too.

 

Appreciate everyones help.  I will try and see if I can locate photo's of any of these aircraft.  Seems like they were carrying asymmetric loads(??) on occasion?? Fuel under one wing, 4 RP's under another as well as 20mm.  Anyway, pretty intense flying by the sounds of it and from what he told me.

 

Thanks again, and if anyone stumbles across any photo's of these airframes I would be hugely grateful as would the family.

 

Cheers Anthony

Edited by Anthony in NZ
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2 hours ago, Anthony in NZ said:

I will try and see if I can locate photo's of any of these aircraft.  Seems like they were carrying asymmetric loads(??) on occasion?? Fuel under one wing, 4 RP's under another as well as 20mm.

 

KZ321 is a Mk.IV,  (though as restored seems to have IIc wings, though a poster said they were IId wing...anyway, they have the C wing 20mm cannon fitted) 

 

The IId was basically a one trick pony,  40mm guns and that's it, whereas the Mk.IV had a universal wing,  40 mm guns, bomb racks, drop tanks, rockets, and had extra armour, most notably externally the radiator bath and under the windscreen.

But also some internal armour

28-7.jpg

 

asymmetric loads have been discussed here

also worth a read

 

there are quite a few images here

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft33545.htm

 

this also is worth a read

HTH

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  • 1 month later...
On 14/04/2020 at 22:14, Troy Smith said:

Another one, said to end up with 6 squadron

Hawker-Hurricane-IId-Trop-RAF-6Sqn-Our-J

 

One of the Lady McRobert presentation aircraft, 'Our John' BN795.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought the MacRobert fighters were named "Sir Iain", "Sir Alasdair" and "Sir Robert", each with the MacRobert family crest and "The MacRobert Fighter" (there was also a Short Stirling, "MacRobert's Reply").

 

Was not "Our John" presented by the mother of Wing Co John Gillan?

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

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  • 10 months later...
On 13/04/2020 at 23:41, Troy Smith said:

 

and spotted something I've not seen noted,

except here..... in 2010...  One I  missed then. :rolleyes:

    Anyway,  interesting thread.  Seems it was used when in training.     

 

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  • 1 year later...
On 13/04/2020 at 23:41, Troy Smith said:

and the serial is on a dark patch

Dark Green I suspect...

49771409462_d97c5efc4f_b.jpg

Look at the canopy frame, above, and here, also not the lighter tone of the underwing of JV*- compared with JV*I /BP158... 

49771177946_4334439a21_o.png

 

could be shadow.... of JV*- was delivered in TLS ,and had had the Dark Green replaced with Middle Stone, and the serial left in a patch of Dark Green with the undersides staying Sky or Sky Blue ?   Bear in mind they were being used at low level, and the film is from when they were training.

 

Hmm....   BP188.... a pic we all know and the main discussion is if the Z is red or black , and this makes a good case for black.... but

Hurricane BP188  crop canopy

 

Now look again, at the canopy frames,  is this another previously TLS plane still with Dark Green canopy framing, 

Also, note the 'border' between the DE/MS by the serial. 

 

Finally there appears to be a name (?) beneath the cockpit as well.   Any ideas?   

 

 

 

Also

On 13/04/2020 at 23:41, Troy Smith said:

JV - / BP134? note c type roundel (so newest) and slightly darker codes, and 'font' style. -

EDIT - the only IId that is BP13* is BP136, 6 sq, damaged by flak and force landed in desert, 29.10.42

From @Geoffrey Sinclair production list, BP131 is a IID, and the Air Britain 

BP131 6/FE SOC 22.2.45

Makes more sense, as in BP131 is IID, as opposed to being listed as a IIC...

 

 

This maybe of use as well,  from the 1974 PSL Hurricane book, to1/24th scale.   Only drawing I have seen showing the rear D door,  as opposed to the C wing so many books show (again, an error repeated in the recent Valiant Wings book) 

HurricaneIIdwingpanels1-24th

 

cheers

T

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