79 Squadron Hurricane SEAC

[rhagger]

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C288057

 

This photo shows a little of this a/c, Kookaburra nose art , and 4 Australians attached to the squadron. A look at 79 Sqns ORB on the UK National Archives website shows that all the 4 pilots flew with the squadron in early 1944. March's entries in the ORB lists serial numbers as well as code letters against pilot's names on operations.

I think I can see 2 very small pale lines on the fuselage just above the outer cannon which could be the top of an 'N'. 79 Squadron's codes were 'NV'. I don't know if the full codes were carried at this time. John Rawlings' Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft states that the codes were not carried for a period in 1942-43.

A search of other posts on Britmodeller says the white SEAC bands were not applied until late 1944/45 , and that the roundels should have been in the 2 blues at the time of this photo.

My questions may not have known answers but are :

-are there other known photos of 79 Sqn Hurricanes in this time frame that may show if fuselage code letters were carried, and also likely spinner colour ( black/white/sky)?

-I suspect the upper colours are green/grey-any thoughts otherwise?

-on the slimmest of chances, does anyone actually know the serial or individual code letter of this a/c with this specific nose art?

Thank you for any replies.

Robert

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The upper colours will have been Dark Green/Dark Earth, as normal for SEAC aircraft of the period.  The undersurface colours probably should have been Medium Sea Grey, but could have been Sky or Azure blue.   Spinner colours seem to have commonly been Dark Earth,   Individual squadron colours were carried on Spitfires in 1945 but I've not seen any specific comment about Hurricanes - by this time I think the unit will have been on P-47s anyway, on which codes were carried.   The codes were often light blue (Sky Blue?) but this is very difficult to tell on photographs. It was  very common for Hurricane squadrons in SEAC not to carry their unit codes, but not universal.  I feel that if you can see some evidence of a letter in the position where "NV" would have been carried then it probably was.

[72modeler]

From the written references I was able to find, No. 79 Squadron flew Hurricane Mk IIc's from June, 1942 until June, 1944, at which time they traded them for Thunderbolt II's. None of the  Hurricane photos I found with the 'NV' codes were from  Burma. Best I can do with the references I have.

Mike

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, rhagger said:

on the slimmest of chances, does anyone actually know the serial or individual code letter of this a/c with this specific nose art?

as the image is copyright expired

 

@tonyot is always a good chap to ask.

 

@Graham Boak comments cover the main points. 

 

3 hours ago, rhagger said:

A look at 79 Sqns ORB on the UK National Archives website shows that all the 4 pilots flew with the squadron in early 1944. March's entries in the ORB lists serial numbers as well as code letters against pilot's names on operations.

If you have serials and code letters you are lucky!  

 

The only 79 Sq hurricane image i found was this

 

Quote

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIC, HV843, of No. 79 Squadron RAF, taxying at an airfield in India.

© IWM MH 4255

 

 

Just in case this is one of your listed serials.

 

HTH

 

[dogsbody]

From the IWM:

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIC, HV843, of No. 79 Squadron RAF, taxying at an airfield in India.

 

 

This is the only one that is identified as a 79 Squadron aircraft.

 

 

Oops! Looks like Troy beat me to it.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[rhagger]

Thank you all for the replies.

-Graham, did Hurricanes carry the Dk Green/ Ocean Grey upper colours in India/Burma at some stage do you know?

-Thanks for checking your references 72. Like you I've seen UK based Hurricanes marked 'NV', and Thunderbolts, but not SEAC Hurricanes.

-Troy and Chris, I've had a look at 79 Sqns  Operations Record Book online again and think maybe the a/c in the photo is HV643 rather than HV843 as captioned.

643 is mentioned around March 1943 without mention of code letter. 843 is listed in January/early 1944 with the code letter 'C'.

 

If I learn more, I'll post again.

Regards

[Graham Boak]

Short answer is that frontline Hurricanes in  India did not carry Ocean Grey.    A longer answer should add that at least one Hurricane photo shows an example not only apparently in Day Fighter but still with full UK Fighter Command trim, but this is a trainer not a front-line aircraft.  The idea that SEAC fighters were in Day Fighter scheme was long held but appears to have been a complete assumption, unfortunately wrong, perhaps helped by the rapid fading of DE in tropical conditions so that there is a good contrast between the two colours in b&w photos.

[Seahawk]

5 hours ago, rhagger said:

, I've had a look at 79 Sqns  Operations Record Book online again and think maybe the a/c in the photo is HV643 rather than HV843 as captioned.

643 is mentioned around March 1943 without mention of code letter. 843 is listed in January/early 1944 with the code letter 'C'.

TBH I can't quite see HV643.  But I could see HV845, vice 843.  Does that one appear in the ORB?

[rhagger]

Thanks Graham,

 

a link to a colour film clip if of interest to any- Hurricanes briefly seen about 21 minute mark-dk earth/green.

 

Hi Seahawk- I can see what you mean by the last numeral in the serial appearing to be the bottom of a '5'. The first could be '6' or '8' to my eyes.

I've had a look again at the ORB pages-I can't see any HV serials ending in '45' other than HV545 in March 1943. March's pages a bit blurred but it doesn't appear to be 845 or 645.

HV643  is noted to be 'B' in May '43 I've found this time through the records.

HV serials appear in late 1942 records-I went back to December 42, and fade out early 1944.

 

regards

[Graham Boak]

Beware.  Most of this film was shot in Canada and has little to do with Burma.  As far as I know there is only one colour still photo from India showing a Hurricane, if only the nose, and this is in DG/DE.  With a yellow spinner, just to be awkward, but this is a fairly late photo.

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Beware.  Most of this film was shot in Canada and has little to do with Burma. 

I think the film has been discussed before, and some is India.   Note the Mohawks just before the sequence with Beaufighters,. Blenheim and Hurricanes. 

at 21.23-21.25 Hurricane R could be HV724 , listed as a IIc and with 67 Sq, HV723 is also listed as 67, and shot down by flak at Akyab 12.8.43.

 

Hurricane R HV724 b by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Hurricane R HV724 a by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Note the best,  I did try to DL the vid but short of drive space. 

 

I did another grab but lost it,  you can see that R is a IIc in the film.  Note L in the background,  with A type roundels, and what appears to by Sky underside. R looks to be darker, so possible Azure Blue.

 

Not much use for the 79 Sw question.

 

There is also colour film of 136 Sq Hurricanes  in India, IIRC, again showing Dark Green/Dark Earth  over Sky.

This I did save...somewhere... It was up on Facebook.

 

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

As far as I know there is only one colour still photo from India showing a Hurricane, if only the nose, and this is in DG/DE.  With a yellow spinner, just to be awkward, but this is a fairly late photo.

 

This one.  black spinner, maybe a yellow nose band, maybe light and shadow from exhausts? 

 

SEACspitXIPhurriIICcolour by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I will edit in another grab later

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, rhagger said:

-I can't see any HV serials ending in '45' other than HV545 in March 1943. March's pages a bit blurred but it doesn't appear to be 845 or 645.

HV643  is noted to be 'B' in May '43 I've found this time through the records.

 

From Air Britain HA100- HZ999

 

HV643 - 79 , SOC 28.9.44

HV645 - 615/79

HV646 - 79/261

HN647 - 79

 

HV843 - 417/451/79 SOC 1.11.43

 

Looking at the photo,  the chap just wonderfully blocks the letter

 

possibles  B D E F P R 

[rhagger]

Probably all I have to add now,

re HV843- is listed in 79 Sqns ORB in January and Feb 1944 as coded 'C' up until and including 19/2/44.

on 20/2/44 'C' is recorded as LB659, and I can't see any further mention of 843.

Thanks all.

cheers,Robert

[rhagger]

Briefly, Norman Franks book RAF Fighter Pilots Over Burma includes a photo of a Hurricane llc of 79 Sqn, flown by Flt Lt Hogan , with "NV" codes at Chittagong at the end of chapter 2.(pre SEAC  style markings).

-so the codes were carried at least at some stage in that theatre.

 

[Bigos]

It´s R/HV845 at Armada Road airfield. Air Fighting Training Unit 1 Calcutta. Pilot W/C Frank Carey!

 Anyway, I believe it deeply.

Check out the description

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060038346

 

[rhagger]

R/HV845 would fit the photo very well. Good searching. Thanks Bigos

[Shark444]

Were all SEAC Hurricane Mk.IIc aircraft equipped with the tropical air filter n the chin?

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Shark444 said:

Were all SEAC Hurricane Mk.IIc aircraft equipped with the tropical air filter n the chin?

they should have been.  It was an standrd fitting for aircraft in the desert and tropics

[Graham Boak]

Very dusty strips down the Arakan, or indeed anywhere in India.

[Pete M.]

And to add to this thread, from the other side of the Tasman Sea I've been trying to ID this pic from the IWM ..obviously a Kiwi pilot. Looking for serial/squadron/pilot name.

IWM caption just states Pilots discuss a sortie by the nose of a Hawker Hurricane Mk IIC of No. 224 Group RAF in north-eastern India, 1943. CI278.

I did a search for the serial on the aircraft in the background and came up with a blank!

 

 

Managed to get the re-released 1:48 Hasegawa Hurricane IIC via Hannants to add to my 'Kiwi pilots' collection so would like to finish it as this one.

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, Pete M. said:

I did a search for the serial on the aircraft in the background and came up with a blank!

 

Air Britain HV816 FE missing 19.3.43

plane looks to had codes overpainted.

23 minutes ago, Pete M. said:

Managed to get the re-released 1:48 Hasegawa Hurricane IIC

 

Didn't know it had been reissued.  Did they include the trop filter?  I hate hase for their boxing specific parts., especially in the older ones where the decals are useless.

HTH

[Pete M.]

3 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Air Britain HV816 FE missing 19.3.43

plane looks to had codes overpainted.

 

Didn't know it had been reissued.  Did they include the trop filter?  I hate hase for their boxing specific parts., especially in the older ones where the decals are useless.

HTH

Hi Troy. Many thanks for your reply. I did find that reference to HV816 but still no mention of squadron!

 

Reissue came up at Hannant's earlier this year. Just did a quick search there and not showing any now. I had it on back-order with them. No trop filter with the Mk.IIC kit so I will have to rob that from my IIB kit! Why the hell do Hasegawa do that, other than doing all of their multiple boxings 🙄

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

[Troy Smith]

34 minutes ago, Pete M. said:

Hi Troy. Many thanks for your reply. I did find that reference to HV816 but still no mention of squadron!

@Geoffrey Sinclair posted up some interesting Hurricane info the other day, so this will send notification.

34 minutes ago, Pete M. said:

 

Reissue came up at Hannant's earlier this year. Just did a quick search there and not showing any now. I had it on back-order with them. No trop filter with the Mk.IIC kit so I will have to rob that from my IIB kit! Why the hell do Hasegawa do that, other than doing all of their multiple boxings 🙄

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

It blinking annoying as so many schemes use it.  

[rhagger]

Pete, this doesn't answer your question, but here are some other examples of 'Tiki' nose art . You might already know of them.

http://venetic.co/FlyingTikiTour.html

Red Roo have a tropical filter I think in 1/48.

Cheers,Robert