RAF Puma where’s the info?

[speedy]

Hi all,

 

I’ve very nearly finished all my jobs and DIY during the lockdown. I got my 3 models out of the loft and started to think about making one.(https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-4499-sa-330-puma-tigermeet--120924)

 

The Puma in RAF service in Northern Ireland is what I’d like to do, but I’m still gathering info which seems to be virtually nil!. Can anyone point me in the right direction to any info that may help.

 

I think I’m going to do the 2 tone green scheme but when did that get introduced?.

Is there any info on the P4 equipped cab?

Was it the P4 cab that carried the Starboard side Nightsun light?
 

There may be more questions but for now.....

 

TIA Steve.

[Des]

Not an aircraft which has seen an awful lot of attention in print over the years and struggling to think of any single source publications although there has been a rather expensive French language book published lately but no idea if it covers RAF operations.

 

Volume 2 of International Air Power Review published in the Autumn of 2001 had one of their variant file articles on the SA 300 Puma versions up until that point but only other thing that comes to mind are random articles on operations and updates that appear in magazines like Air Force Monthly , Air International and the like.

[Sky dancer]

Hi Steve,

 

My memory may be playing tricks, but I thought P3 was the special one?

 

Have never, ever seen anything in any detail about it and definitely no photographs of the interior. Any time that "I didn't see it" in use, it never used Night-sun - but that doesn't mean that it wasn't fitted.

 

I think the two-tone green scheme came in around 1993/4 or so, but I'm not certain of that.

 

Many knowledgeable people over on this forum, you might get an answer :- https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/399005-shfni-stories.html

 

HTH!

 

 

[speedy]

10 minutes ago, Sky dancer said:

Hi Steve,

 

My memory may be playing tricks, but I thought P3 was the special one?

 

Have never, ever seen anything in any detail about it and definitely no photographs of the interior. Any time that "I didn't see it" in use, it never used Night-sun - but that doesn't mean that it wasn't fitted.

 

I think the two-tone green scheme came in around 1993/4 or so, but I'm not certain of that.

 

Many knowledgeable people over on this forum, you might get an answer :- https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/399005-shfni-stories.html

 

HTH!

 

 

Thanks for that, I’ll give it a go.

[Rickoshea52]

The wraparound scheme was applied to all Puma’s on 230 Sqn when I was there from 4/96 to 11/97 and we had virtually every standard Puma rotated through the Sqn in that time; the exceptions were those with the enlarged sponsons. 

We had as many as 15 cabs at any one time with one of these always undergoing 200hr (later 250) servicing. 

Three cabs provided the immediate roles that 230 were responsible for; P1 was allocated to everyday trooping requirements for the Army/RUC and fitted with cockpit seat armour and a GPMG on the RH troop door; P2 was equipped with a GPMG on the RH door, possibly fast ropes too, night sun, cougarnet radio (the stubby little aerial for this was bolted onto the troop access step), and headsets for each troopseat position; P3 was fitted with a surveillance suit inside with stations for two AEO’s to operate the kit, P3 also had a night sun and the cabin windows covered with black tape. The P3 did not have a GPMG if I recall and only flew at night with the nickname “the pig”, because it meant the Sqn had to have a minimum night shift crew. 

All other cabs were used for GH/training or in rectification. The Tiger’s head emblem in a black outlined pentagon was carried on both LH & RH Pilots doors, most were made from black fablon on a clear film but at least one cab had a yellow painted tigers head black pentagon.

Some time ago I built the Airfix Puma in the Whirleybird tigermeet colours, it’s on this site somewhere.  

 

Edit: I forgot to mention that all NI std cabs had a MAWS/jammer fitted too. I also found my Puma RFI  

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Rickoshea52

[TimB]

There were 2-green camouflaged Pumas in 1994, as I have a couple of photos taken at Odiham probably in July showing XW236 in that scheme.  For a number of reasons, the special NI fits were not always documented very well.  They tended to be fitted and removed at Aldergrove, were managed on a need-to-know basis and not photographed beyond the need for a configuration record.  The NI helo force tended to "do its own thing" in many cases - such as repainting aircraft without bothering to ask for permission.  For that matter so did bits of the UK SH force at that time...  

Regards

Tim

[tarlucan]

Biggest problem with the 1/32 Puma is that when Revell added the PIPS (dust filters), they failed to update the intake area which changed markedly.

 

Just google any mid 70s era pictures and then look at anything from the early 80s onwards.

 

You need to be quite specific on the timescale you want to model as there were a number of smaller mods that appeared in the early 90s. Once 230 Sqn became established in NI, the peace process and then Bosnian conflicts saw lots of minor equipment re-roles on a temp basis.

 

I saw you tried to garner some response on the SHFNI thread, most of us were too tired or p*****d to remember any details from that far back but one day, somebody will write a bloody good book!

Edited April 17, 2020 by tarlucan

[sammy da fish]

Evening, as some one who unfortunately did 22 years on the Puma starting back in 1978 before MPAI or pips intakes, I do know a little about her. P2 was a special fit with a large camera out of the side, this could be fitted in an afternoon, not used much after about 1990. P4 is another special fit which does include two extra crew, lots of heavy Equipment and takes about 4-6 hours to fit. A night sun can be fitted normally to stbd. Due to the nature of these fits, there should be no pictures I am sorry. Any other questions just please ask. 

Sammy

[speedy]

Thanks everyone, my research showed in “JANES” that “Pleasant 3 was fitted with Ferranti/Barr & Stroud Type 221 thermal imaging system”.

 

Either way like Sammy above has said there are zero photo’s out there, unless it’s in a personal stash somewhere.

 

i have indeed put a post on SHFNI stories so will repeat them here.

 

How many aircrew would have flown in the cab whilst on ops in NI.

 

The armoured seats I found on eBay look to have a larger RHS shoulder area. Are these seats handed?

[Rickoshea52]

Speedy,

The P3 (some also refer to this as the P4 but I always knew it as the P3) have a surveillance suite fitted inside the cab consisting of a console for two AEO’s/LM’s to sit at, a camera unit fitted over the load pole hole and as explained to me the camera extended through this hole. As explained earlier this cab was also fitted with a night sun on the RH side, a crew of four operated this cab. 
All other cabs were operated with a crew of three; a pilot, pilot or nav and a loadmaster/crewman. 
I don’t recall the armoured seats being handed though they were heavy and a PITA to fit. 
My time on 230 was limited to a narrow period in the mid nineties and memories get a bit fuzzy over time but I am certain of my recollections here but appreciate they differ from others experience. 

[Tom Murphy]

I might have a few photos of P3 that I took when I was at RIC(NI) in 1988-89.  I'll need to dig through my loft but if I can find something I'll scan and post them.

 

As I recall from my time there, P3 had a two-man crew, pilot and navigator.  The nav operated the surveillance suite and the other seats in the back was for an observer from the unit that was being supported on the particular mission.  That arrangement might have changed by the time Rickoshea52 worked on it, so it doesn't contradict what he wrote.  He's also correct that it didn't have a GPMG fitted, it's role was to stand off from the target out of small arms range.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Tom Murphy
Added more info.

[speedy]

I thank you all above who’ve replied above. In the space of a few days my limited memory of those days gone by have been expanded by you guys. Thanks very much indeed👋.

[sammy da fish]

The armoured seats are handed and not the easiest to fit. Both seats with armour can only be used over land as they are fitted with dummy seat pans. There is only AP’s for role changes of P4 and there used to be a scheme for P2 when it was used in old times. I know I helped to write it back then. I don’t think it would be a good idea to show any pictures on here chaps.
 

[tarlucan]

Sammy, what you are referring to as P2 is not the same as Rick. P4 was simply an upgrade to P3.

 

Rick's P2 had no specific scheme. Although P3 also referred to its original Pleasant 3 title as already been alluded to, once 230 sqn arrived, the daily programme line simply listed aircraft by number, thus generally Puma 1 to about 6 (depending on serviceability).

 

Usually, each aircraft line was assigned to a specific region where all landing sites were colour coded , S Armagh - reds, Fermanagh - greens etc. P3 naturally was allocated accordingly. By this stage, NVG operations were standard at night so Nitesuns hardly ever fitted.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by tarlucan

[Tom Murphy]

Just to add to what tarlucan has said about allocation of Pumas to specific areas -

 

While I was there, P3 was under the operational control of RIC(NI). We received the requests for P3 support and tasked the aircraft on a priority basis.  Sometimes it would have only one mission per night, sometimes more.  We always tried to accommodate every request but occasionally that wasn't possible.  I don't know if that arrangement changed after I was posted out.

 

BTW, I was one of the army Intelligence Corps personnel attached to RIC(NI), not RAF.

[Sky dancer]

A very, very trivial point Steve, but since this thread appears to be the one and only reference source to the P3 Puma's, some of the P3 crew wore this patch rather than the standard tigers head (just in case you want to model the crew)

 

 

 

Exceedingly rare patch, not mine unfortunately...

[Rickoshea52]

I asked an ex-230 Sqn fairy buddy who tells me the P4 was indeed the surveillance cab so I stand corrected on the numbering of the cabs. 

 

[tarlucan]

Let the history lesson continue.

 

There had been a roulement Puma presence in NI for many years when 72 Sqn served alone and unafraid with the mighty Wessex. P3 was manned on a detachment basis by crews from 33 & 230 sqn.

 

The Bat badge was created by 230 Sqn in the late 80s because that was just the sort of thing they did when they weren't at Tiger Meets or generally larking around the West German plain.

 

There is no way certain a OC 230 Sqn in the mid 90s would have countenanced that sort of non-conformity trust me!

[spruecutter96]

The first 15 minutes of the film "Edge of Tomorrow" might be worth watching, for interior colours and details (although the Puma in the movie is a much more recent example than the one the OP wants to  build).

 

Chris.