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What if Me262 HG III


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TLDR: Hitler is assassinated, the new non nazi government comes to terms with the west and declare war in the Soviet Union. Materiel is short so existing German designed are adapted for the new war.
 

Backstory: ( the longer  version) 

The July 20th 1944  assassination plot has succeeded. Von Stauffenberg decided to use the second kilo of explosives and the bomb didn't get moved. Hitler is no more having sustained fatal injuries in the blast. Carl Freidrich Godeler has been installed as the new civilian Chancellor and Erwin Von Witzelben is the new chief of staff. The Reichstag is restored and the first directive of the new government is to outlaw the Nazi party, disband the SS and stop the Holocaust.

The new republic successfully  sues for peace with the Western allies an armistice is declared on the western front. War on the eastern front continues, the aim of the new western alliance is to destroy Communism. World ware 2.5 commences......

Under the new Aviation minister Adolf Galland, the roles need ed for the new offensive are examined.  Almost all of the new designs on the drawing board are high speed short range interceptors, however long range escort roles in support of the Ural bombing campaign and ground attack types to support the 1945 spring offensive in the east  are now required.  
 

Having determined the stop gap measures thought go to producing a new type  that leverages existing designs but is specifically for long range escort  duties,. It is intended as a replacement for the USAF P51,s P82,s and Luftwaffe ME109Ls. 

Messerschmidt having explored various upgraded 62 designs return to the three man night fighter design based on the 262 (see below, afaik this was a real Messerschmidt project ate in the war)  more or less preserving the proposed design but removing the radar operator thus shortening the canopy to accommodate the two man crew. Note the second seat is to allow long range flights with the pilots alternating flying duties.

From the basic 262  the fuselage is lengthened by 1.5m  the engines are the lighter uprated Jumo -004J and are housed in streamlined pods now attached to the fuselage and the fuel load is increased to allow longer range operations. As the primary role is escort rather than bomber interception main armament is reduced to 4 7.9mm caliber guns housed in the nose.  

Although a successful design the 462/ P52, saw limited service owing to the surrender of the USSR following  the nuclear attack by the US on  Volgograd and Murmansk in the spring of 1945.

 

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Edited by Marklo
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5 hours ago, Marklo said:

the nuclear attack by the US on  Volgograd and Murmansk in the spring of 1945.

There was no such city in 1945 as Volgograd! 

This modern name appeared only in 1961!

 

5 hours ago, Marklo said:

As the primary role is escort rather than bomber interception main armament is reduced to 4 7.9mm caliber guns housed in the nose.  

 

Rifle caliber?  He was already ineffective at the beginning of the IIWW, especially against Soviet armor.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

And what happened to Japan in this version of the alternative story?  If Germany became an ally of the United States, then it became an enemy of Japan!  The USSR did not fight with Japan, but Japan fought with the USA, which became an enemy of the USSR.  The logical conclusion is that the USSR and Japan are united.

Japan gained access to Soviet resources and the USSR ceased to support the struggle of China against Japan.  In this case, it makes absolutely no sense for Japan to keep the 1,000,000 Kwantung army in China, and the USSR does not make sense to keep its divisions in the Far East in the event of a Japanese attack.

Thus, the USSR has new divisions on the western front, and the Japanese have at least another 500,000 people for the war with the United States and Russian strategic materials, and maybe technology, as T-34 or IL-2.

Also, the USSR gains access to such critical technologies for itself as turbochargers and aircraft carriers.  As a result, the Soviet Yak-3, La-7, IL-10, Tu-2 with turbochargers increase altitude and speed.

 

In such conditions,

"nuclear attack by the US on  Volgograd and Murmansk in the spring of 1945."

it looks unobvious.

 

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On 4/13/2020 at 12:51 AM, Aardvark said:

In such conditions,

"nuclear attack by the US on  Volgograd and Murmansk in the spring of 1

I Just picked two lesser cities. Look through any history book and the likes of Leningrad (previously Lennongrad damn you autocorrect!) is almost never referred to as ST Petersburg.

 

On 4/13/2020 at 12:51 AM, Aardvark said:

 

Rifle caliber?  He was already ineffective at the beginning of the IIWW, especially against Soviet armor.

Well seeing as how the 262 was fairly fuel hungry even stripped down with extra fuel it probably wouldn’t have had the range any way. But the 4 BK 108s would have been a substantial  weight. Also the soviet fighters were pretty much built to fight the Eastern front ground war they would have had to adapt their planes to high altitude interception so I’m going to say the decided to forgo the armour for speed and height :)  

 

Although the Stauffenberg plot outcome is if my own invention, many contemporary accounts suggest that the Germans fully believed that there would be war between the western allies. Indeed at the end of the war there were many incidents of Soviet aircraft firing on US bombers that could have sparked a conflict. Probably the fact that that Red army had been forged into the most effective army stopped things from escalating.
 

Funnily enough the war in the east doesn’t interest me as much. By 1945 the Soviet Union had agreed to an offensive against Japan, who were pretty much on their knees. To the point that the nuclear attacks and even the putative invasion of Japan weren’t really needed to finish the War, just to foreshorten it. The Soviet’s would have stood down the attack on Japan. The allies only needed to run a blockade and wait, while concentrating on  the new war in the West.

 

Look at Italy in WWI and post 1943 for that matter, Germany being opposed to a former ally wouldn’t be unreasonable.

 

Also history doesn’t always play out in a logical fashion. eg if Hitler had finished off the BEF at Dunkirk England my well have surrendered. If the Germans had pressed on and taken Moscow in 1941 the Soviets might have caved in. If the sixth army had been allowed to break out and attention had been placed on a drive to the Caucuses then the Soviet Union wouldn’t have had the resources for the 1944 offensives and the war in the eastern front would have been very different and so on.
 

A lot of the basis for the premise is simply the Soviet fear of German Weapons systems combined with western manufacturing resources and manufacturing systems. Arguably the Panther was the best medium tank of WWII imagine an army that could field Panther derivatives on the scale of Sherman manufacturing. The exchange ratio in the eastern front was 7:1 given the relative numbers of German/Soviet armour a force of equal strength would have literally blown away the Red army.

Edited by Marklo
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11 hours ago, Wulfman said:

 

Great back story, I intend to use post-war type crosses on my whifs. Lots of scope for refurbished 190s, 262s and Luft 46 types.

 

I have a 109 and a 190 build in the same vein planned and I’m going to use a cross ( no pun intended) between the late war outline balkankruz ( 4 L’s) and the cross patee, I considered the modern Luftwaffe type but I want the finished item to look different.

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On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Look through any history book and the likes of Lennongrad is almost never referred to as ST Petersburg.

1.Lennon & Lenin it's some different.

😁

2. Ofcource, because modern name - St.Petersburg, WW2 name - Leningrad, also modern  name Volgograd, WW2 name Stalingrad.

3. Stalingrad after Stalingrad battle was destroyed on 95-99%, point to drop a very expensive atomic bomb on a completely destroyed city?  With the same meaning, one could drop an atomic bomb at a "balalaika plant"(c), the moral effect would be the same.

4.Soviet intelligence was fully aware of the work on the atomic bomb in the United States (the Rosenberg case, Fuchs case, etc.) so they knew what the actual number of bombs in the USA was, therefore the USSR was unlikely to sign surrender.

5. Anti-fascists and Jews who fled Nazi Germany worked on a nuclear project in the USA. Do You seriously think that they would help to make a bomb for those from whom they fled?  After all, they were not businessmen, they were world-famous scientists, they had slightly different principles, it is likely that they would slow down the development of the atomic bomb.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Also the soviet fighters were pretty much built to fight the Eastern front ground war they would have had to adapt their planes to high altitude interception so I’m going to say the decided to forgo the armour for speed and height :)  

The war at low altitudes was fought because the main task of Soviet soldiers was to protect attack aircraft and bombers operating at low and medium altitudes. But work on turbochargers and high-altitude fighters during the war in the USSR was carried out constantly, but for the above reason they were not priority. This led to the transfer of high-altitude MiG-3 in terms of air defense.The appearance of single Ju-86Ps over Moscow caused concern, but was not perceived as a critical threat, since the USSR had information that the number of Ju-86Ps was very small. Nevertheless, as the hunters for the Yu-86P, Mikoyan I-221/I-222/I-224/I-225 and Yakovlev Yak-5 developed and flew, from which it can be assumed that in the event of a serious threat from high altitudes, these aircraft would be launched in a large series.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Although the Stauffenberg plot outcome is if my own invention, many contemporary accounts suggest that the Germans fully believed that there would be war between the western allies.

According to rumors, separatist negotiations on a ceasefire between the West and Germany and between the USSR and Germany were.  But there are no official documents confirming this, and perhaps never will be.  Therefore, these rumors are incomprehensibly based on real events, or these rumors were part of a disinformation campaign carried out by the German intelligence services in order to quarrel the allies. At the same time, these rumors are the storyline of many post-war novels and movie.

 

B.w. the USSR’s foreign intelligence was ready to attempt on hitler, given that according to some reports, Soviet intelligence had agents who had access to the leadership of the third reich (according to one version, it was probably, hitler favorite - actress Olga Chekhova) so the attempt could be successful.  But Stalin canceled these attempts.  He probably feared that those who would come instead of hitler might make a separate peace with the West.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Indeed at the end of the war there were many incidents of Soviet aircraft firing on US bombers that could have sparked a conflict. Probably the fact that that Red army had been forged into the most effective army stopped things from escalating.

Do you think that only the USSR attacked the Allied planes, and they never did anything like that?  Never bombed Soviet ground troops on the march?  The last two aircraft shot down by Kozhedub were Mustang.  They have not been on the list of his official victories for a long time, but there are film footage and modern evidence of the loss of these Mustang's.  According to one version, these Mustang's were attacked by Soviet bombers, Kozhedub attempts to wedge himself and show that he was his own led to the fact that Mustang's attacked him too, then he had no choice but to attack Mustang's.

And so? Friendly fire has always been. I do not remember the precedents that he would lead to a war between the allies.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Funnily enough the war in the east doesn’t interest me as much. By 1945 the Soviet Union had agreed to an offensive against Japan, who were pretty much on their knees. To the point that the nuclear attacks and even the putative invasion of Japan weren’t really needed to finish the War, just to foreshorten it. The Soviet’s would have stood down the attack on Japan. The allies only needed to run a blockade and wait, while concentrating on  the new war in the West.

That is why the American military analysts estimated the losses during the landing in Japan as unacceptable .... there wasn’t even a word about China.

The entry of the USSR into the war against Japan was agreed at the Yalta Conference.

And it was the Manjurian operation, when, in the course of the classic blitzkrieg, in just two weeks, it occupied an area of an area equal to Western Europe on which there was a million-strong group of troops, sobered up many hot heads both in Japan and in the West.  In combination with the atomic bombing, the loss in two weeks of such territory and a million-strong army probably led to the surrender of Japan.  In principle, the USSR was still planning a landing operation with the aim of capturing Hokkaido, which was not provided for by the Yalta agreements, but it was canceled.  In addition, in fact, according to a number of researchers, the USSR was not ready for such landings and it could have ended in a fiasco.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Look at Italy in WWI and post 1943 for that matter, Germany being opposed to a former ally wouldn’t be unreasonable.

Also Romanian, Bulgaria and Finland.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Also history doesn’t always play out in a logical fashion. eg if Hitler had finished off the BEF at Dunkirk England my well have surrendered.

I don’t know, but the capitulation of England after Dunkirk seems dubious to me.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

If the Germans had pressed on and taken Moscow in 1941 the Soviets might have caved in.

And precisely in order to capitulate after the surrender of Moscow, factories, government agencies, museums were evacuated from Moscow, buildings were mined? 😉😁

Hint. After the surrender of Moscow, the next capital was to be the  Kuibyshev city.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

If the sixth army had been allowed to break out and attention had been placed on a drive to the Caucuses then the Soviet Union wouldn’t have had the resources for the 1944 offensives and the war in the eastern front would have been very different and so on.

Yes, it is really a difficult development.  The problem is that if the USSR were defeated at Stalingrad, Turkey and Japan would probably enter the war against the USSR.  The entry of Turkey and the loss of the Caucasus would most likely lead to the loss of Iran and then the occupation of India, the further scenario is bad enough, I think it is reflected in "A Man in a High Castle"

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

A lot of the basis for the premise is simply the Soviet fear of German Weapons systems

"Soviet fear of German Weapons systems"???? 😁

You do not confuse this with the "T-34 & KV fear"? 😁

Is the name "Stalin's organ" familiar to You?

And then, after all, I can now sketch out links to “bold” German reports from the Eastern front! 😁

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

combined with western manufacturing resources and manufacturing systems

And here it is?  Do you seriously think that it is worth sending drawings of Panther and Porsche engineers to the Vickers plant and the next day the Vickers plant will produce the Panther tank?

😁

At a minimum, it takes from half a year to a year to adapt German technologies and technological processes to English technological processes, not to mention the transfer of the metric system to an inch system.  The process of copying the B-29 and the creation of the Tu-4 took several years from the USSR, despite the fact that in the USSR, thanks to the license for the DC-3, there were American technological processes and the experience of converting inches to meters.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

Arguably the Panther was the best medium tank of WWII imagine an army that could field Panther derivatives on the scale of Sherman manufacturing.

For the above reason I can not imagine this.  German tanks had the main problem, like most German weapons, it was not appropriated for total and mass production.

On 4/13/2020 at 9:55 AM, Marklo said:

The exchange ratio in the eastern front was 7:1 given the relative numbers of German/Soviet armour a force of equal strength would have literally blown away the Red army.

Even if this miracle somehow happened, it would simply lead to a mass appearance on the front of the IS-2, ISU-152, and subsequently the T-44 with the IS-3 and in the long run IS-4 .... after which  The result is somewhat predictable.

 

Total.

Idea, as alternative history interesting, but it must be modified for best reality!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

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1 hour ago, Aardvark said:

.Lennon & Lenin it's some different

You got me there I could Of course blame autocorrect.

 

Cities chosen at random. But if you consider the Japan attack the primary aim was to demonstrate the weapon not maximum destruction otherwise surely Tokyo would have been chosen.

 

Yes soviet agents were at the core of the American and British bomb programs. But by my alternate 1945 2 more bombs could have been made available. 
 

As to whether the Americans would bomb the Soviet, I’m sure someone would. Personally I wouldn’t even drop a conventional bomb let alone a nuclear one.

 

Ok won’t argue on the Cannon but the BK 108 was used to pack a punch against Bomber formations. So something lighter but capable of dealing with Armor. Remember calibration isn’t everything muzzle velocities and even materials make a difference. My main thought no matter how you may disagree with the detail is that German and Soviet development went down very specific paths that suited the war on the eastern front. eg the Me163 such short range that it was really useless as a fighter but addressing the issue of rapid response interception.


I have read many accounts of small scale conflict between Soviet forces and Americans at the end of the war. Also if Nazi claims of an alliance. I also think that considering the tensions throughout the 50’s and 60’s a hot war was plausible, only the nuclear deterrent kept it cold.

 

The British were also considering assassination of Hitler but by 1943/44 they recognised that he was doing such a bad job, they were actually afraid tat a competent traction might take over and turn the war around.

 

Wether the British would have sued for peace if they had lost the BEF at Dunkirk is debatable, but it would certainly have changed the war.

 

Id argue that the Germans had superior weapons systems, but they had too many developments and poor organisation so few saw proper production and development. Again many would consider the Panther the best medium tank of the war, certainly better than the designs of the western allies, which didn’t come up to scratch till very late in the war with designs like the Pershing and the later Comets.

 

Anyway glad to see someone’s reading the thread. It is after all a bit of fun so yes my what if isn’t necessarily complete, but I still think it’s pretty cool plausible. If I were writing a book to it I’d probably tie up some of the loose ends pointed out. But some if it is my opinion and I hold to that.

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8 minutes ago, Marklo said:

Me163 such short range that it was really useless as a fighter but addressing the issue of rapid response interception.

Me-163 ( also Me-328, Me-263 e.t.c) is a dead end branch of evolution.  In the USSR, they worked on this idea for a long time.

 Partial awareness of this came to the USSR when the program's

BI-1 (even the BI-VS military series was built),  302P and project Polikarpov Maljutka(Baby), Bartiny 114  and Yak-7R , was closed.There was no need for such interceptors, since there was no threat of German bombing of large industrial centers, in other cases, because of their short range, they were useless.

The idea was remembered immediately after the war, when there was a threat of an attack of many B-29s in the cities of the USSR.

Then appeared MiG I-270, Florov 4403 and project Lavochkin 162, but because of the rapid development of jet fighters as MiG-15, La-15 e.t.c., this idea was abandoned.

The third time they returned to this idea when the U-2 flew over the USSR with impunity.  The USSR leadership had concerns that the U-2 might carry an atomic bomb and, sooner or later, would drop it on their heads, for example during a parade. 😁

Since the S-75 Dvina was not yet completely ready, they were upgraded to the Ye-2A and Yak-27 rocket engine, which became known as the Ye-50A and Yak-27R.

Then the idea arose to send the Ye-50A to intercept the U-2.

But a problem arose, the rocket engine required special fuel, which simply could not be taken somewhere at the base.  Therefore, with the Ye-50A it was still necessary to carry a train of fuel and special equipment for refueling, so the Ye-50A system was not mobile.

So the idea of fighter-interceptors with rocket engines in the USSR finally ended.

As you can see, the beautiful story of the senselessness of the Me-163 and a beautiful illustration of the incorrect arrangement of resources and priorities in Germany during the 2WW.  Because all these resources spent on the Me-163 could be directed to work on the Me-262, which in this case could appear massively in luftwaffe  before 1944.

Of course this is clear now in terms of post-knowledge

8 minutes ago, Marklo said:

The British were also considering assassination of Hitler but by 1943/44 they

I've never heard of this, where I'm can read about it?

8 minutes ago, Marklo said:

Anyway glad to see someone’s reading the thread.

Just Me-262-III from Special Hobby finished over 10 years standing on a shelf in front of my eyes. I actually have about 35 Luft-46 models, but as I wrote, I’m unlikely to ever show them on the forums.

 

B.R.

Serge

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3 hours ago, Aardvark said:

.There was no need for such interceptors, since there was no threat of German bombing of large industrial centers, in other cases, because of their short range, they were useless.

Agreed in doing this build I found it fascinating to see how the German military has gone down such specific technological paths. Eg the Super heavy tank but little or no development on medium models. Short range interceptors,  no bombers etc.

 

I’ve  read about the Soviet developments if the 163, definitely a technologically dead end. Rocket fighter by William Green is a very good account.

 

We should all be glad that the Germans didn’t have the organisation to develop their military technology. Imagine for example if the 262 had been operational as a fighter in 1943 in quantity. The allies were sustaining losses high enough to consider stopping the raids, that would at least have added years to the war.

 

At the battle of Kursk the Germans fielded 11 different tank chassis types the Soviets 3, just think of the logistics of keeping that many variants in the field. Again I’ve heard it argued that if they had just concentrated on Panzer IV production they might have won the war. The Tiger/Ferdinand/Panther were impressive when they worked but expensive and complex to make. 
 

There was an extremely good documentary on the Discovery channel (I think) about how basically one of the British SOE was planning to assassinate Hitler in 1944 and how they were stopped by another of the Services because (MI5 orMI6) they were afraid of a competent General taking over.  If you think about it at least from Stalingrad on he made all the wrong decisions. Eg Pauli’s should have been allowed to break out. The Caucasus’s were by far the more significant strategic objective, gaining the oil fields and denying the Soviets the same would have changed the war. Arguably diverting eastern front units to Italy was a tactical error. The Ardennes offensive was a massive mistake, although the war was well lost by then. And so on, there are so many aspects of WW2 where history could have gone so differently. For example I recently read a book on German secret weapons claiming that Germany actually had very small scale nuclear devices and may have used at least one in combat, now while that’s plausible, I remain sceptical as I reckon that they would have used them in quantity if they existed. The argument for them not being used is that Hitler considered them Jewish science and did not pursue their development because if this. Google Operation Foxley, the plot was devised by the SOE, but blocked by the other intelligence agencies.

 

 

Anyway,  to summarise WW2 what ifs endless scope for discussion:) 

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The Germans were working on bombers, only abandoning (most) in the final desperate year.  It would indeed have been very interesting to see the Me262 in 1943 - of course that means fighting against Meteors, Superfortresses etc.  Sauce for the goose.  It wasn't their organisation that prevented them getting the Me262 earlier, it was the difficulty of the new technology, as for everyone else.  As for Hitler being incompetent compared to the generals, it was he that pressed for the Caucasus offensive for precisely the  reason you specify: it was the generals who preferred to destroy the Red Army in combat and then mop up afterwards.  "My generals do not understand economics."  How realistic it would have been to reach Baku is another matter.  Taking Moscow would have had a similar effect by chopping the heart out of the Russian railways.  It was he who pressed for a high speed bomber to hit the Allies on the beaches so that they couldn't establish a strong foothold.  Not that he had any real chance of that, of course,, but the much-vaunted tale of the Me262 fighters being delayed does not bear scrutiny (or, it's codswallop.  The main delays were due to the problems with the Jumo.).  Not that all of his decisions were so correct (there are others which were) but there's no need to distort history to further vilify him - there's quite enough real evidence for that already.

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Any excuse to buy more history books found what looks like a good book on Foxley : Kill the Fuhrer: Section X and Operation Foxley  by Denis Rigden only 3.52 on kindle,  now to find the time to read them all.

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19 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Germans were working on bombers, only abandoning (most) in the final desperate year.  It would indeed have been very interesting to see the Me262 in 1943 - of course that means fighting against Meteors, Superfortresses etc. 

Then, in a year would probably be swept-wing P.1101 & Ta-183 e.t.c. against which the allies would simply have nothing to oppose, because there was simply no research on the swept-wing.

🤗

24 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Taking Moscow would have had a similar effect by chopping the heart out of the Russian railways. 

It is doubtful.  As I wrote, Moscow was ready for evacuation; accordingly, reserve points for managing the railway network were created.

29 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Not that he had any real chance of that, of course,, but the much-vaunted tale of the Me262 fighters being delayed does not bear scrutiny (or, it's codswallop.  The main delays were due to the problems with the Jumo.). 

For starters, the He-280, which, according to TsAGI's post-war reports, was less technologically advanced than the Me-262, but had better aerodynamics.  The rejection of the further development of the He-280 in favor of the Me-262 stole the most important thing - time. The time that could be spent on improving and fine-tuning the reliability of jet engines. In fact, in Germany, in addition to work on piston engines, promising work was underway on aviation diesel engines (which did not find any tangible result in the future) with jet engines, turbo-jet engines and rocket engines.  This is a lot for a country fighting with the whole world. Some areas had to be closed in order to achieve faster results in others.

Another question is that the German economy as a whole did not pull out such a number of promising weapons programs - missiles (which leads to work in the field of guidance and control systems)

, jet engines, an atomic bomb, submarines, tanks, add to this the support of military operations on two fronts, the final is somewhat logical and predictable.

 

B.R.

Serge

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19 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Then, in a year would probably be swept-wing P.1101 & Ta-183 e.t.c. against which the allies would simply have nothing to oppose, because there was simply no research on the swept-wing.

Yes but if you think about it economics not technology is what win the second world war for the allies. The German  joke Was that a Tigervwas worth 9 Shermans but they always had 10. Germany was constantly trying to develop technology to counter the massive manufacturing resources of the allies, which they couldn’t hope to match. The advanced weapons would probsbly only have prolonged the war not changed its outcome.

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26 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

It is doubtful.  As I wrote, Moscow was ready for evacuation; accordingly, reserve points for managing the railway network were created.

Perhaps, but the shift from using Blitzkrieg tactics in Western Europe to the attempts to draw the Red army into a super Cannae are what led to the ultimate failure in the east. Blitzkrieg relied on using combined operations tactically to defeat (possibly) superior forces. Instead the Wehrmacht tried to wage a conventional war across a broad front and initially were lulled into a false sense of security owing to a gross underestimation if the size and capability and the poor state of the Red army from a material and leadership point of view at that time.  Indeed even Hitlers leadership seemed to be working at this point with his hold fast command in late 1941. 
 

Once the Red army got its act together there was no way the Wehrmacht was going to beat it in a stand up fight. 

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Wasn’t the He 280 more or less mothballed because it was thought that the war was going to be over before it was needed. Quite a lot of weapons programs were halted or slowed down in 1942/43 for the same reasons. 
 

The Jumo was at the bleeding edge of technology and the whole Schnell bomber might be a red herring. 
 

And again seeing as how the Germans pretty much ended the war using variants of the weapons they started with, arguably a shift to total war earlier on and a focus on mass production and refinement of those weapons would have been much more effective ( but not good for humanity and boring for us modellers :) ) 

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On 4/14/2020 at 9:06 PM, Graham Boak said:

As for Hitler being incompetent compared to the generals, it was he that pressed for the Caucasus offensive for precisely the  reason you specify: it was the generals who preferred to destroy the Red Army in combat and then mop up afterwards.  "My generals do not understand economics."  How realistic it would have been to reach Baku is another matter.

 

 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:48 PM, Marklo said:

The Caucasus’s were by far the more significant strategic objective, gaining the oil fields and denying the Soviets the same would have changed the war.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 3:25 PM, Aardvark said:

Yes, it is really a difficult development.  The problem is that if the USSR were defeated at Stalingrad, Turkey and Japan would probably enter the war against the USSR.  The entry of Turkey and the loss of the Caucasus would most likely lead to the loss of Iran and then the occupation of India, the further scenario is bad enough, I think it is reflected in "A Man in a High Castle"

 I knew absolutely nothing about this side of 2WW, so I decided to study the information on the Internet.

 

 So, thanks to this Russian article "Oil is the blood of war"

about Soviet oil workers during the war, it becomes clear that for the USSR the loss of the oil-bearing regions of Grozny-Baku would be an unpleasant, but not critical, moment:

http://old.redstar.ru/2007/05/05_05/1_07.html

It follows from the article that oil refineries were prepared for evacuation, and the equipment that could not be evacuated was mined and prepared for destruction, like wells. Interestingly, even having captured the oil fields in Maykop town, Germany during the 1.5 years of occupation of this region was not able to establish oil production in the occupied region for its needs, oil wells were put out of order so efficiently. 

In parallel, new oil fields were discovered in the USSR in the East Ural region, and production in Turkmenistan was increased.
The article also indicates a miscalculation of the German command, which did not take into account that in the conditions of the winter war, frost and dirt, fuel consumption in their troops will increase by 2-3 times. 

But this does not remove the answer to another question: "What would happen if Turkey and Japan entered the war and the Germans captured Iran?"

 

B.R.

Serge 

 

P.S.

Interesting moments, the article refers about built on personal money workers of the oil industry of the USSR aircraft were built for the squadrons of the "Bashkir Oil Worker", the "Kuibyshev Oil Worker", the "Syzran Driller", the "Okhta Oil Worker", the "Geophysicist of Bashkiria" fighter, the tank columns the "Stavropol Oil Worker", the "Ukhta Oil Worker", and the "Kazakhstan Oil Worker".

 

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I found that 

Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front, 1941-1942: Schwerpunkt

Book by Robert Forczyk and the second book were a brilliant read and in the second book Forczyk makes the point that the Red army wouldn’t have had the resources for the 43/44 offensives if the Germans had taken the caucuses. Whether or not that was the case we’ll never really know. For example I’m sure the a Soviet Union has extensive coal reserves and might have been able to switch to synthetic oil production as the Germans had done before the war. 

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On 4/14/2020 at 7:48 PM, Marklo said:


 

There was an extremely good documentary on the Discovery channel (I think) about how basically one of the British SOE was planning to assassinate Hitler in 1944 and how they were stopped by another of the Services because (MI5 orMI6) they were afraid of a competent General taking over.  If you think about it at least from Stalingrad on he made all the wrong decisions. Eg Pauli’s should have been allowed to break out. The Caucasus’s were by far the more significant strategic objective, gaining the oil fields and denying the Soviets the same would have changed the war. Arguably diverting eastern front units to Italy was a tactical error. The Ardennes offensive was a massive mistake, although the war was well lost by then. And so on, there are so many aspects of WW2 where history could have gone so differently. For example I recently read a book on German secret weapons claiming that Germany actually had very small scale nuclear devices and may have used at least one in combat, now while that’s plausible, I remain sceptical as I reckon that they would have used them in quantity if they existed. The argument for them not being used is that Hitler considered them Jewish science and did not pursue their development because if this. Google Operation Foxley, the plot was devised by the SOE, but blocked by the other intelligence agencies.

 

 

Anyway,  to summarise WW2 what ifs endless scope for discussion:) 

There has been at least 2 attempts studied.

And I'll say that the british were able to do that.

When they consider that Reynard Heydrich was a potential future leader far more dangerous than the little "stache man"...

Case has been dealed with and closed quickly, thanks to the Czech commandos...

 

when I read Lennongrad, I burst in laugh....

Dully saved in my files...

Now I don't know how John would have appreciated it :rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Whatever great story and great discussion thanks to @Aardvark

Interesting facts indeed. 

I really enjoyed both the thread and the kit !! 

 

Hey Serge, why not showing your Luft 46 collection, it will be interesting to see it !!

 

I'm not a great fan of Luft 46 subjects but I confess to enjoy seeing it...

Now it remain me of the Triebflugel madness in wich I involve myself, Thanks to our Dear @Martian Hale

 

Great stuff in here for sure, Thank you all.

Sincerely.

CC

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8 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

There has been at least 2 attempts studied.

And I'll say that the british were able to do that.

When they consider that Reynard Heydrich was a potential future leader far more dangerous than the little "stache man"...

Case has been dealed with and closed quickly, thanks to the Czech commandos...

Operation "Anthropoid"?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anthropoid

 

A mistake with the landing site of sabotage groups, local objections to the action itself, a failed submachine gun (why take an unreliable weapon for such an action?) Thrown under the wheels of a grenade that only miraculously wounded the target of the attempt, which was driving without a guard in a cabriolet

... in a cabriolet Karl! .... while the doctors were more qualified, the target could have survived... after which the agents  were tracked  and destroyed.

 

 Is this called a carefully planned operation?

 

Compare with what the one man alone ( but with resource support)

planned such operations on the Eastern front did:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Kuznetsov_(spy)

 

Read better and the Russian version, it is more complete:

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кузнецов,_Николай_Иванович_(разведчик)

 

At the same time, he also obtained intelligence information!

 

Compare with the elimination of gauleiter kube:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Kube

 

Also, read better and the Russian version, it is more complete:

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кубе,_Вильгельм

 

But the problem is, (and the example of unsuccessful attempts* to eliminate gauleiter koch confirms) that if the target had more or less serious protection, it was often not possible to carry out the attempt.

Such attempts can be made only if  have  own agents in the immediate environment of the target.

But the problem is that even now, the official recognition of the presence of such agents can cause a scandal!

Just imagine what will happen if it is officially confirmed that bormann or muller, those who are responsible for the killing of many people, were agents of Soviet or British intelligence.

Therefore, we are unlikely to find out the details of possible assassination attempts on hitler.

 

8 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

when I read Lennongrad, I burst in laugh....

Dully saved in my files...

Now I don't know how John would have appreciated it :rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Well, when Google translates me, sometimes it writes the exact opposite of what I want to write.  We have to double-check.

8 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Hey Serge, why not showing your Luft 46 collection, it will be interesting to see it !!

No! Why?

I already wrote about this here:

What was published before 2014, You can see on BM, for as examples here:

or here:

 

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_43708.html

 

Yes, my friend present me some Luft'46 models, for example, last was Henschel Hs.PJ.600/67 from Unicraft models, but I don’t have a desire to build them now, for the reasons I mentioned above.

The maximum that I can do is to publish a list of the models that I have and express my opinion about them, just that.

I have no desire to build them either now or in the near future.  I’d better build some of the projects of the Soviet Air Force, as LaGG-RD / Yak-7R or RAF/RN Hawker P.1121 "Hurricane II" / Hawker P.1154 "Harrier" !

Conversion F-80C to L-133, also very interesting.

😉😎

 

8 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Whatever great story and great discussion thanks to @Aardvark

Interesting facts indeed. 

Thanks.  But for me this is not a dispute for the sake of argument, as I wrote here,

I am only writing my opinion with reference to my experience, intuition and publicly available sources.  In addition, the theme of “What if” is a very good gymnastics for the brain, as for me.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

______________

* - just two, whose security was problematic, I personally saw at a distance of several meters, now they are not in this world....

 

 

ALL Link was late....battery low levell!

 

Edited by Aardvark
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2 hours ago, Aardvark said:

ALL Link was late....battery low levell!

So, my previous post, completed in the form in which it was conceived.

 

An important addition to this

(to avoid speculation, otherwise you’ll think that I’m a hitman! 😁😁):

2 hours ago, Aardvark said:

just two, whose security was problematic, I personally saw at a distance of several meters, now they are not in this world....

Just in my life, I met twice with people who were later liquidated by the security services.  These are famous personalities, naturally, I have nothing to do with their liquidation, but even to me, not a professional, security holes in one of them were noticeable.

 

 

In general, this topic.

I also liked this discussion  that was here, because the model with the story, even if this story is "What if?", always better than a model without a story for me.

 

B.R.

Serge

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