Jump to content

Hurricane IV, 6 Squadron - nose art


Recommended Posts

Been meaning to flag this one up for a while,  well known photo. 

 

Hurricane_IV_6_San_RAF_at_Foggia_1944.jp

 

what I have not seen commented on is the art on the port engine panel.  Frustratingly  the photo offers no clue to the planes identity.

 

Other details of note.

Badly painted spinner,  presumably red flaking off Sky.

non standard large underwing roundel

ground crew inspecting gun camera (above rockets)

Asymmetric load out, commonly seen in these photos,  this is listed as Foggia, but other are listed as being Prkos. 

Painted out DFS yellow leading edges? 

 

one famous image which shows similar traits is this 'R'  note red spinner and painted out Sky band.

32_Squadron_RAF_pilots_with_6_Squadron_H

also seen here

Hurricane_Mk_IV_No_6_Sqn_with_rockets_an

Mason's 1962 Hurricane book has this captioned as LF498 but I shall need to check.

 

this is new too me

89-3.jpg

 

This is i think part of the sequence

Ground_crew_rolling_drums_of_petrol_to_H

the lack of underwing roundels on the lead plane, and Sky spinner on the 3rd plane, assuming the others are red?  Or is flakig red paint? Again non standard size and position of underwing roundel.

The lack of underwing on the first plane makes me wonder if they were over painted for some reason,  and the later repainted in field,  which would explain the non standard size and position.

 

 

 

while hunting up the above pic, ran across this short clip, showing rockets being loaded, and a take off

 

Quote

 

No 6 Squadron RAF Hurricane IV, based at Canne, Italy and detached to Vis, Croatia, late 1944. Later at Araxos, Greece, supporting British troops. In May 1945 aircraft "C" KZ188 was at Prkos, near Zadar, Croatia

is the helpful caption.

'C' can be seen at 0.25

 

and is well known from this photo

Hurricane_Mark_IV,_KZ188_%3FC%3F,_of_No.

 

Note the C type upperwing roundels.

And, as if to (again) prove my sig line...this....

note fin flash, size of C, rocket colours,and Sky spinner....:fraidnot:

hurricane_IV_450.jpg

 

I shall dig out some previous post on the assymetric load out etc later

 

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Note the Hurricane on the far left in a highly contrasting scheme - desert?

 

The early QL bowser has some interesting markings and would make a good conversion from the Airfix Kit.

 

In those days it was Yugoslavia, not Croatia.  On our side, at least.

 

The asymmetric load was used on the fairly disastrous raid on Crete, which wouldn't have been from anywhere that far north.  Which is not to say that such loads may not have been carried at other times, if less well recorded.

Edited by Graham Boak
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The asymmetric load was used on the fairly disastrous raid on Crete, which wouldn't have been from anywhere that far north.  Which is not to say that such loads may not have been carried at other times, if less well recorded.

 

 

Dug this one out,  some interesting info 

  

On 11/03/2014 at 02:46, KevinK said:

The reason for the asymmetrical weapons load on 6 Sqn was fairly straightforward - they needed the extra fuel to get to the target and the rockets to attack it. This is not the trivial point it might seem, as the Hurricanes were the only RAF aircraft in the theatre - other than the Beaufighter - cleared to carry rockets, but didn't have the range on internal fuel to make the Adriatic crossing and penetrate far into Yugoslavia. Once Vis was secured, it was used first as a forward refuelling base and later as a base but the extra fuel was still needed for deeper penetration missions. The rocket units were indeed handed, so either port or stbd set could be fitted, as seen in the photos.

On the issue of clearance to carry rockets - The Spitfire hadn't had A&AEE clearance at that time, but when one of the Wing's Spitfire squadrons sent a detatchment to Greece at the time of the uprising, the Sqn Engineering Officer made a local mod to fit rockets which were used successfully, but the mod was not approved and removed on the Sqn's return to Italy.

Kevin

 

 

and reminded me of this,  which apart from having a much higher contrast of the upper colours, but is a bit tatty so perhaps just faded? 

large.jpg&key=d239e1a2db75d2070b14a4c9c4

 

is possibly an example of this, posted on Key Forum,

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/3867571-hurricane-nose-profiles-not-always-quite-the-same?page=1

by @Anneorac  a very occasional poster here

Quote

Moving on to the Hurricane II we have the bullet shaped ES/9 spinner and the slightly longer CM/1. The difference in shape between the two is very subtle with the ES/9 having a constantly increasing curve from the back plate to the nose while the CM/1 has a flatter curve from backing plate to just in front of the blades and then a slightly steeper curve from that point.

The easiest way of telling the difference is but looking at the way spinners attach to the back plate. The ES/9 is attached by six locking studs on the spinner so if you can see two small holes on the spinner between the blades, you are looking at an ES/9. Just be aware if you are looking at a close-up, DH spinners attach in a similar way.

The CM/1 spinner is locked by a single slot located on the backing plate so if you can’t see any holes on the spinner you may be looking at a CM/1. If you are lucky and the prop has stopped in the correct place you may even be able to see the slot in the backing plate.

 

this shows the two holes in the spinner,note the blade markings are different as well.

Hurricane_IV_6_San_RAF_at_Foggia_1944.jp

 

And still no takers or guess on the engine panel insignia,  or am I being dim and it's just a variation on the 6 Sq flying can opener? 

I'll edit in a image in a mo...

OK, screen grabs for a film on 6 Sq

49757938813_90d6ddb95e_o.pngHurricane 6 sq tin opener by losethekibble, on Flickr

close up, but a different airframe

49758469206_70236f83d6_o.pngHurricane 6 sq tin opener close up by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

it's just a variation on the 6 Sq flying can opener? 

Certainly not a bad shout. Looks like it could well be something flying/riding on the 'Flying Can Opener' to my eyes.

 

Mark.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

Certainly not a bad shout. Looks like it could well be something flying/riding on the 'Flying Can Opener' to my eyes.

added a couple of screen grabs,  interestingly both are quite different.  Amazed it didn't occur to me before DOH! :banghead:

Link to post
Share on other sites

The artwork in the first photo does look like it incorporates a flying can opener to me,.....  but as to what else is there,...who knows mate? I love checking out these old 6 Sqn Hurricane pics,..... they get even more interesting when you get to the post war use in Cyprus and Palestine!

 

Cheers

          Tony 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, tonyot said:

they get even more interesting when you get to the post war use in Cyprus and Palestine!

In my searches for the above, I found some of those....  just need to try to make some coherent sense of the images. (or coherent sense in general..) 

 

I shall stick a notification in when I have a go at that. 

 

cheers

T

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

@Troy Smith Found the image on the IWM website here, and it is indeed a play on the flying tin opener. I don't have a photo host, other wise I'd put up the screen garb from the hi-res copy.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

@Troy Smith Found the image on the IWM website here, and it is indeed a play on the flying tin opener. I don't have a photo host, other wise I'd put up the screen garb from the hi-res copy.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

 

This one:

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.229476766.3228290

 

 

A blow-up:

 

49758955242_bc773a7aff_o.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

Found the image on the IWM website here, and it is indeed a play on the flying tin opener. I don't have a photo host, other wise I'd put up the screen garb from the hi-res copy.

the top one is off wiki,  this is the IWM one.  Not much in it.   A proper high res one bought may get more detail out, but no serial or letter is not much help.

I was planning (finally) on a trip to the IWM,  as it would be interesting to see more from this film/photographer/set,  

 

one other thing I just noticed,. (apart from the date from the IWM) is are the cowl panels replacements, could be shadow, but not the hard line in front of the cockpit. 

Also, the shadow of the cockpit armour just below the windscreen.

 

large_000000.jpg

 

Quote

Object description

A Hawker Hurricane Mark IV of No. 6 Squadron RAF being serviced on an airfield in Italy, probably Foggia Main, prior to a sortie over the Adriatic. Note the asymmetric wing loading on the aircraft, consisting of a 44-gallon long-range fuel tank under the port wing, and four 3-inch rocket projectiles under the starboard: also the Type G45 gun camera being serviced by the airman standing second from the right. Propped up by the starboard undercarriage is the port lower engine access panel, on which is painted the pilot's personal emblem.

Label

A Hawker Hurricane Mk IV of No. 6 Squadron RAF being serviced at Foggia in Italy prior to a sortie over the Adriatic, 24 July 1944.

© IWM CNA 3035

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, is everybody using the big + and - signs next to the 'Use Image' box to zoom in on the images on the IWM website? @dogsbody as an overseas viewer of the IWM website, is that functionality on there available to you?

 

Mark.

Edited by Harry Lime
added question
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, is everybody using the big + and - signs next to the 'Use Image' box to zoom in on the images on the IWM website?

 

Mark.

good idea, and using the wonderful 'prntscrn' button....

49758150173_0aed168ddd_b.jpgHurricane 6 sq foggia nose art crop by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

dang...now I really want to know this ones identoty!

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, is everybody using the big + and - signs next to the 'Use Image' box to zoom in on the images on the IWM website?

 

Mark.

 

Yes, always. I also check the USE IMAGE to see if there is a free picture to use. If so, I then click and copy the code at the top of the page and paste it here. That lets you post a direct image here, without having to save it to a photo hosting site.

 

 

 

Chris

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

@dogsbody as an overseas viewer of the IWM website, is that functionality on there available to you?

 

Mark.

 

Yes. I can use the + and - and the USE IMAGE function. I have also emailed the IWM a few time to let them know of incorrectly captioned photos. Just today, I received two emails letting me know that a couple more photos will be properly re-captioned. 

 

There are not many days that I don't visit the IWM at least once, mostly to post photos to this forum.

 

 

 

 

Chris

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

dang...now I really want to know this ones identoty!

Starter for 10, could be 'A'? That 'A' looks like it has been deliberately incorporated into the design for some reason.

 

Mark.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 10 months later...

Hello!

 

Some time ago this was posted:

On 4/10/2020 at 3:49 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

 

is the helpful caption.

'C' can be seen at 0.25

 

 

 

I watched the film frame by frame with help of this neat site http://www.watchframebyframe.com/   and last frames show Hurricane "F" starting.

 

From 6 Sqn ORBs late 1944 I find only one mission where Hurricanes C and F take part together.

Araxos, Greece, October 12th, 1944. At the time "C" was KZ556 and  "F" was KZ224. I try to put clickable link for an ORB clipping here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p7eoDChoQfAXTxxO8HejDdEY5JEOKfqT/view?usp=sharing

 

From August 44 to May 45 in 6 Squadron six different Hurricanes carried "C" and two "F" as far as I can squeeze out of the ORBs.

 

For me the interesting thing in camouflage is how light the plane undersides seem to be. Are they some light blue instead of MSG?

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

Edited by Kari Lumppio
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I think that the footage was taken at the airfield at Vis (the proximity of the hills in the background is clearly visible when the Hurricanes are taking off). Likely dates would be in August/September 1944 when LD233 ‘C’ and KZ224 ‘F’ we’re flown on a number of sorties from the island - including on 14 September when LD233 was shot down with the loss of the pilot. Sadly there is no reference to the filming in the squadron ORB.

 

Hurricane LD233 ‘C’ was unusual in that it carried the aircraft letter under the front of the nose - see the photo in Troy’s original post. This photo is one of a sequence taken by an American photographer of aircraft at Vis during the visit of Tito to the Yugoslav Spitfire squadron based on the Island of Vis - it is not unreasonable that the RAF film crew were present at the same time.

 

All of the squadron’s Hurricanes that were flown to Italy were repainted to day fighter colours before leaving Egypt but later aircraft were supplied from maintenance units in Italy and Egypt and show a degree of variation in markings - certainly a few made it into action in desert colours as shown from the sequence of photos taken by RAF photographers at Aragon’s airfield in October 1944.

 

Simon

Edited by Sgifford
Additional info
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello!

 

Simon, You probably are right. I was too hung up with the "late 1944" in Troy's post. Checked also the August and September ORBs of 6 Sqn.

 

"C" LD233 and "F" KZ224 have indeed flown together 18., 20., 22., 23., 24. and 31. August 1944 plus 13. and 14. September (LD233 "Charlie" lost the latter day).

The planes were in the Vis island detachment. I am not too familiar of the geography but the airfield was in a valley. The heat (men without shirts) is more August than October, too?

 

OK I got it half right, eh? Grade C?

 

Cheers,

Kari

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Kari,

I think you did pretty well - I have done a lot of research on 6 Squadron and their Hurricanes, the postwar stuff went into a book but have a lot on the wartime era as well. Had a quick scan of my notes and the Tito visit to the airfield was on September 2, 1944 so I would suggest that the August 31 sorties would be the most likely - I have a photo of the airfield that shows the proximity of the hills to the single runway.

 

during this time 6 Squadron was still based in Italy with Vis as a detachment so the ORB only records operational details of what was happening there - so it is not surprising that the filming is not mentioned.

 

Always happy to talk about the squadron and their Hurricanes,

 

Simon

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

The planes were in the Vis island detachment. I am not too familiar of the geography but the airfield was in a valley. The heat (men without shirts) is more August than October, too?

There's an excellent Drone video on YT overflying the island, including the location of the airfield.
Gives a good 'feel' for the surroundings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNwggFdBZc

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...