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will2017

P26 / P12 Yellow / Blue Colour Paint

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I'm researching a P26 build (with a hope to follow it up with a P12), and was wondering if anyone knew what paint to use for the Yellow / Blue schemes?

I've sort of a zeroed in on RLM04 for the Yellow, but have not managed to decide what the right blue is.

 

Is there anyone who can help me?

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Chrome Yellow Fs 13538, RLM04 Fs guestimate, Fs33538. Close enough for me

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Posted (edited)

I recall we had a good discussion regarding USAAC true blue/light blue a while back- I think in reference to a PT-13 build. Dana Bell, noted USAAF color authority posted very good information on the nomenclature/s and FS equivalents here on BM. You could do a search for it. The link below might be useful, and you can also do an internet search for USAAC true blue/light blue FS 595 equivalents.

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
added text

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USAAC blue isn't an easy subject. For instance, the name of the early blue is 'Light Blue 23' (a slightly greyish turquoise blue). True Blue is a Navy colour that was used later with the ANA standardization, possibly not before 1938. There were only very few, if any (repainted), P-12 with blue fuselage. The standard fuselage colour was olive drab 22. Also all P-26 were delivered in olive drab. The background is that blue 23 was specified for training aircraft in the first place, and olive drab for operational planes. This was changed to blue 23 for both types in 1935 but wasn't implemented for a long time. It is still controversial how many P-26 were actually repainted, particularly in the famous 17th Pursuit Group. Dana Bell is of the opinion that a special home-mixed blue was used in their case, but - definitely controversial.

 

The best yellow for USAAC aircraft of the period is Tamiya PS-19 Camel Yellow.  The Army yellow wings had an orange tinge, much stronger than the Navy wings.

 

Cheers, Michael

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From the Aviatik book "USAAC camouflage & markings 1926-1941" A list of "colors of dopes used in USAAC and their counterparts Fs 595B:

  • Light Blue No.23: Fs 15193
  • Colonial Yellow No.2: Fs 13594
  • Yellow No.4: Fs 13538
  • Orange Yellow No.5: Fs 12197
  • Identification Yellow: Fs 33538

I've included all the yellow from this time frame

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I didn't expect that detail of information. Thanks for all of that - I can now finish off my research successfully.

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@Toryu,

 

Michael,

Thanks for the clarification- I meant to use both color names in my post, so I have gone back and amended it to be more correct. Thanks for having my six!

Mike

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12 hours ago, fubar57 said:

From the Aviatik book "USAAC camouflage & markings 1926-1941" A list of "colors of dopes used in USAAC and their counterparts Fs 595B:

  • Light Blue No.23: Fs 15193
  • Colonial Yellow No.2: Fs 13594
  • Yellow No.4: Fs 13538
  • Orange Yellow No.5: Fs 12197
  • Identification Yellow: Fs 33538

I've included all the yellow from this time frame

12197 is International Orange.  It is definitely an orange color without a hint of yellow in it.  Orange Yellow is 13538, which is a darker yellow than the Navy's Lemon Yellow used for section markings.

Later,

Dave

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Hi,

 

I'm not trying to cause confusion but I thought the Tamiya Camel Yellow was closest to USN Chrome Yellow and the USAAC yellow was less orange. I have seen a model where RAF Golden Yellow was used on a USAAC P-12

 

Regards

 

Phil

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@Phil Evans  No, other way around! It's not advisable to take models for guidance. The best thing to do is to buy some books of renowned researchers, e.g. the excellent 'Official Monogram US Color Guides'.

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Something like this on a B-10:

 

spacer.png

 

Ed

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On 4/11/2020 at 8:10 AM, Toryu said:

@Phil Evans  No, other way around! It's not advisable to take models for guidance. The best thing to do is to buy some books of renowned researchers, e.g. the excellent 'Official Monogram US Color Guides'.

I have both the Dana Bell book, "Air Force Colors vol.1 1926-1942" and the "Official Monogram US Army Air Service & Air Corps Aircraft Color Guide Vol 1 1908-1941.  The Dana Bell book is the overall better book.  I was doing some research for a future project last night and looking through the Monogram Guide book I could not find out which Olive Drab was in use in the early 1920s.  It just doesn't tell you!  I did a quick look through the Dana Bell book and I have a real good idea which OD it was and it also gives you an approximate FS 595 equivalent with the differences between the FS color and the actual color.  The Monogram Guide complements, not supplements the earlier Dana Bell book and it costs a lot less than the Monogram Guide book did.

Later,

Dave

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4 minutes ago, e8n2 said:

I could not find out which Olive Drab was in use in the early 1920s

I understand what you mean. I have both books, too, and appreciate the relative merit of both. Archer does inform about the different OD periods, it‘s just a little more difficult to find the respective captions (which is indeed a weakness of his book). Also colour chips of all ODs are attached in chronological sequence. I prefer colour samples over FS codes with (subjective) deviation descriptions. Bell‘s book appears more consequent and therefore clearer, but he makes some assumptions about colour changes and dates in operational service which deviate from the published TOs. These may be totally justified but are conjectural. So, as you say, the books are complementary.

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This is thread is well timed as I would like to make 3 US Navy Yellow Wing kits from the stash but the only paint that I have is Revell 15 mat yellow.

How close is it to the US Navy Yellow?

 

49805127781_b478a1042c_k.jpgIMG_9731 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

49805127806_896a27b855_k.jpgIMG_9730 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

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@RAS  Revell 15 is not strong enough. US Navy Orange Yellow is a very clear, bright, strong yellow with a very slight orange touch.

I have Revell 15 but found it very difficult to mix with other colours to get to the desired clearness for my own F4B here. I can't remember how I did it but I finally arrived. You may try with an addition of 25% Revell 12 plus a touch of orange or red. The best match may be acrylic Tamiya XF-3, again with a touch of red.

Make sure you have a new can of Revell 15 because mine aged strongly towards beige. You need also give the whole upper wing a final coat of (semi) gloss.

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Posted (edited)

Tamiya spray TS-34 Camel Yellow is a very good match for US Orange Yellow.  I plan to use it on my 1/72 US biplanes.

Edited by Clifton

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And Testors makes a True Blue in their enamel range.  Their catalog number for that is 203003.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that 1920s and 1930s olive drab was fairly dark.  I've seen Tamiya XF-62 olive drab recommended for this shade.

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14 minutes ago, Clifton said:

And Testors makes a True Blue in their enamel range.  Their catalog number for that is 203003.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that 1920s and 1930s olive drab was fairly dark.  I've seen Tamiya XF-62 olive drab recommended for this shade.

Yeah, but True Blue is not the shade you want for a P-26. Rather, as stated elsewhere, it's Light Blue No. 23, which is lighter and more turquoise than True Blue.

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I think you're right--looks like True Blue replaced Light Blue 23 in 1938.  I guess it depends which time frame you're modeling.

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Posted (edited)

Just found an old thread where Nick Millman analyzes the closest colors to Light Blue 23.

 

"The closest FS value to Blue 23 is 15193 at 4.36 where < 2.0 = a close match. It has slightly less green and is lighter but would probably look acceptable on a model."

 

Unfortunately, this seems to be a difficult color to find!  The closest color I could find in Testors range is catalog number 203223, which they call Bright Blue.  The FS number is 35183.

 

Looking at Urban's Colour Reference Chart on the IPMS Stockholm website, they give Tamiya XF-08 Flat Blue as an equivalent.

 

So it might be one would need to mix the color.

Edited by Clifton

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Posted (edited)

Later in the same thread, I saw a recommendation for a Vallejo light turquoise color:

 

"Not that I cared too much when I built my 1/48 P-26, as for this I ended using Vallejo's 840 Light Turquoise, a paint that is maybe just a touch lighter than the sample shown above and a bit less grey."

 

Also, I've just found a Testors   gloss enamel car color, Turquoise, and the catalog number for that one is 2765.

Edited by Clifton

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2 hours ago, Clifton said:

Just found an old thread where Nick Millman analyzes the closest colors to Light Blue 23.

 

"The closest FS value to Blue 23 is 15193 at 4.36 where < 2.0 = a close match. It has slightly less green and is lighter but would probably look acceptable on a model."

 

Unfortunately, this seems to be a difficult color to find!  The closest color I could find in Testors range is catalog number 203223, which they call Bright Blue.  The FS number is 35183.

 

Looking at Urban's Colour Reference Chart on the IPMS Stockholm website, they give Tamiya XF-08 Flat Blue as an equivalent.

 

So it might be one would need to mix the color.

Yes, I ended up making my own mix when I did a Hobbycraft P-26 some years ago. I recall it was not that easy and that I rejected a bunch of mix attempts before I found one that seemed satisfactory. I think Polly Scale back in the day did a rendition of No. 23 that was reasonably close, although I don't think it had quite enough yellow in it. Aside from that, all the model paints I know of seem to equate No. 23 with True Blue, which, as you say, was only valid at the end of the 30s and into the 40s.

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As I mentioned earlier in this post - Tamiya Camel Yellow is good for USAAC Yellow 4, but too orange for Navy ‘Orange‘ Yellow, which has actually only a very faint orange touch.

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23 hours ago, Toryu said:

I understand what you mean. I have both books, too, and appreciate the relative merit of both. Archer does inform about the different OD periods, it‘s just a little more difficult to find the respective captions (which is indeed a weakness of his book). Also colour chips of all ODs are attached in chronological sequence. I prefer colour samples over FS codes with (subjective) deviation descriptions. Bell‘s book appears more consequent and therefore clearer, but he makes some assumptions about colour changes and dates in operational service which deviate from the published TOs. These may be totally justified but are conjectural. So, as you say, the books are complementary.

I was looking at the chips in the back and it seemed that OD 22 would have been the one to use, but it doesn't say anywhere that I looked that that was the color to use.  About 5 minutes into looking through Dana Bell's book again, and for the immediate post war era they basically used Khaki.  I am planning on doing both a Fokker D.VII and D.VIII that were tested at McCook Field shortly after the end of the war.  I have also seen that they had a Sopwith TF.2 Salamander and a Siemens-Schuckert D.III there at the same time with Air Service serial numbers and project numbers assigned.  Can't find any photos of the latter two, but if I do them in khaki and somebody tries to tell me that they weren't done that way, I will ask them to show me a photo of them at McCook to prove it.  I can always claim it as a whif if need be!

Later,

Dave

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