P26 / P12 Yellow / Blue Colour Paint

[Toryu]

@e8n2

Khaki is a good choice for your endeaver. OD 22 was derived directly from British WWI Khaki.

[Roger Holden]

On 23/04/2020 at 06:26, e8n2 said:

I was looking at the chips in the back and it seemed that OD 22 would have been the one to use, but it doesn't say anywhere that I looked that that was the color to use.

OD 22 only came into general use at some point in the early 1920s. Before that they were 'khaki', (same spec as British PC10).  Any of those WW1-era planes were khaki, not OD. The Fokker T-2 in the NASM is khaki (1922), which is much browner than the later OD. 

[Roger Holden]

On 22/04/2020 at 23:37, Seawinder said:

Yeah, but True Blue is not the shade you want for a P-26. Rather, as stated elsewhere, it's Light Blue No. 23, which is lighter and more turquoise than True Blue.

Dana Bell has posted several times on the evolution of Light Blue 23, which changed on 2 or 3 occasions through the 1930s. It started out as that turquoise shade, but that faded badly and was replaced by a colour fairly close to True Blue by the time it came to be used on the P-26.  I've seen several colour charts from US paint companies in the 1934-5 time frame which show a True Blue-like shade for 'Army Blue/Fuselage Blue', not the turquoise shade. The latter was probably only used on the late 20s training planes like the PT-3.  Ultimately, it was replaced by actual USN True Blue when the Army and Navy colour specs were consolidated within the ANA standard, circa 1939.

[72modeler]

The best overall reference on the history U.S. olive drab in all of its permutations is Dana Bell's treatment in Aircraft Pictorial No. 9- Painting  Guide Vol. 1. It has everything you wanted to know about the color but were either afraid or didn't know what to ask! I highly recommend it and all of the other monographs he has done in the series. (The standard disclaimer about getting no consideration for the plug- just a grateful modeler who tries to get  everything the man has written, as everything he has done has been thoroughly researched.) As @Roger Holden has stated, Dana provided a very good summary of light/true blue and its usage by the USAAC and USN, along with FS equivalents, here on BM, and which you can search for.

Mike

 

Not that it will help you much, but I am hoarding a bottle of Pactra O.D. in their old military flat enamel paint line (The fat round bottles) that is a very good match for the khaki used on U.S. between the wars aircraft. It is a very brown O.D./PC-10 looking color.

Mike

[Clifton]

On 4/23/2020 at 12:26 AM, Toryu said:

As I mentioned earlier in this post - Tamiya Camel Yellow is good for USAAC Yellow 4, but too orange for Navy ‘Orange‘ Yellow, which has actually only a very faint orange touch.

Tamiya also makes a chrome yellow spray can, which sounds more like the Navy color.  The number for Chrome Yellow is TS-47.  It looks good; I just used it on the cowling of a 1/48 P-47.

[Toryu]

2 hours ago, Clifton said:

Tamiya also makes a chrome yellow spray can, which sounds more like the Navy color.

It's NOT the Navy colour - too orange.  It's the USAAC Colour.

Sorry, this statement was wrong - see below.

[Clifton]

1 hour ago, Toryu said:

It's NOT the Navy colour - too orange.  It's the USAAC Colour.

I wish you'd make up your mind.  You said above that Camel Yellow is the USAAC color:

 

"The best yellow for USAAC aircraft of the period is Tamiya PS-19 Camel Yellow."

 

Of course, Tamiya doesn't make this any easier by neglecting to match their paint with any standard color system.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Clifton

[Toryu]

@Clifton  You're right, sorry. I messed them up. I don't know Tamiya Chrome Yellow. On internet it looks much like Tamiya XF-3 from the bottle on which I commented above. Apologies for the confusion.

[Clifton]

@Toryu--hey, it's all good!  It's just that I was getting confused, too!  I also realized that Tamiya has different types of spray paint.  I guess you're probably more familiar with their PS range, while my local model shop has the TS range as well as the AS (aircraft spray) range.  

 

I looked at the P-47 wheels I painted with XF-3 Yellow, and the color looks very close to TS-47, Chrome Yellow spray (which I sprayed on the Thunderbolt cowling).  I think the Chrome Yellow aligns with ANA 505, Light Yellow.

 

And, as you said, the Camel Yellow has a bit more orange in it, like the old Orange Yellow ANA 614.

 

Sheesh!  Thanks for being patient with me, @Toryu!

[dalea]

Fromm-Azur give FS 35109 as the blue for their forthcoming Martin B-10

[e8n2]

7 hours ago, dalea said:

Fromm-Azur give FS 35109 as the blue for their forthcoming Martin B-10

Here's what Dana Bell had to say about 35109 for Blue 23 in Air Force Colors Volume 1, " poor match, #23 is stronger, a little greener, a little lighter, glossy".  That being said, I have used it myself, but it would be nicer if there was a 15109 at least since it is a glossy color.  I also have a bottle of an acrylic paint that claims to be Air Corps Blue, but I've had it for over 20 years and have never used it, not sure if I will ever use it as I am not too thrilled with acrylic paints.  I would tell you the brand but it is late in the evening and it would be too much oc a hassle to dig it out to find out what brand it is and probably OOP anyway.

Later,

Dave

P.S.  The acrylic Air Corps Blue that I have is also quite a bit lighter than 35109.

Edited May 5, 2020 by e8n2
Added post script

[e8n2]

23 hours ago, e8n2 said:

Here's what Dana Bell had to say about 35109 for Blue 23 in Air Force Colors Volume 1, " poor match, #23 is stronger, a little greener, a little lighter, glossy".  That being said, I have used it myself, but it would be nicer if there was a 15109 at least since it is a glossy color.  I also have a bottle of an acrylic paint that claims to be Air Corps Blue, but I've had it for over 20 years and have never used it, not sure if I will ever use it as I am not too thrilled with acrylic paints.  I would tell you the brand but it is late in the evening and it would be too much oc a hassle to dig it out to find out what brand it is and probably OOP anyway.

Later,

Dave

P.S.  The acrylic Air Corps Blue that I have is also quite a bit lighter than 35109.

It is Polly Scale paint.  On the bottle, USAAC Blue 23 is listed as FS 15102, USAAC 22 is FS 10118, and USAAC Orange Yellow is FS 13432.  Take it for what it is worth.

Later,

Dave

Edited May 6, 2020 by e8n2
Correct spelling of Polly Scale

[2996 Victor]

Hi All,

 

I've been reading this thread with some interest as I'm planning a couple of projects from the thirties into the early forties, so encompassing the OD/Yellow and Blue/Yellow eras. I have a copy of Dana Bell's book on order, which I'm eagerly awaiting!

 

While we've had some detailed info on FS colours in earlier replies, but how do these relate to readily available paints for the modeller? Tamiya Camel Yellow has been mentioned as suitable for the Army Yellow. What about the Blues? Hataka does and acrylic True Blue - how good is it? I've also read that the Hataka paints aren't the easiest to use compared to, say, Vallejo Model Air.

 

Any thoughts would be welcomed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Jur]

Hi Mark, I am also building a couple of pre-war USAAF aircraft, the trusty old Revell Stearman Kaydet and the P-26. I have used the Tamiya Camel Yellow rattle can for both. For the fuselages I used Vallejo 70.840 Light Turquoise on the Kaydet and Vallejo 70.962 Flat Blue for the Peashooter. These are Model Colour paints so they do need a good bit of thinning for the airbrush.

 

I decided on these after trawling through the net and also, simply, because they conform to the pictures on the box!

 

 

I don't claim any particular accuracy here so I'm quite prepared to be shot down in flames on this. I tried to research the colours but it is a jungle out there with so many different views and opinions that I got depressed out of fear for getting it wrong. In the end I thought sod that, I just go with what I like. What's the worst that can happen?

 

Only the rigging to do, and I have some ideas about putting them on a stand...

Edited July 29, 2020 by Jur

[Pinback]

23 hours ago, Jur said:

I don't claim any particular accuracy here so I'm quite prepared to be shot down in flames on this

Hi Jur - Well I think that they are rather smart!

 

I'm with you on the minefield bit. Dana Bell and other kind people have given me useful points on a Curtis P6E and am heading for something between your Kaydet and P26 . Vaguely RAF blue (!)

 

Hope Swindon is good - Lived there for a fair few years. Could quite happily have a pint now in the Roaring Donkey, Beehive etc but can't see that happening for a long while.  Stay safe!

[2996 Victor]

On 29/07/2020 at 11:54, Jur said:

Hi Mark, I am also building a couple of pre-war USAAF aircraft, the trusty old Revell Stearman Kaydet and the P-26. I have used the Tamiya Camel Yellow rattle can for both. For the fuselages I used Vallejo 70.840 Light Turquoise on the Kaydet and Vallejo 70.962 Flat Blue for the Peashooter. These are Model Colour paints so they do need a good bit of thinning for the airbrush.

 

I decided on these after trawling through the net and also, simply, because they conform to the pictures on the box!

 

 

I don't claim any particular accuracy here so I'm quite prepared to be shot down in flames on this. I tried to research the colours but it is a jungle out there with so many different views and opinions that I got depressed out of fear for getting it wrong. In the end I thought sod that, I just go with what I like. What's the worst that can happen?

 

Only the rigging to do, and I have some ideas about putting them on a stand...

Hi Jur,

Many, many, many apologies for not having responded sooner - I'm really not sure where the last couple of weeks has gone.....

Your Stearman and Peashooter look excellent, and I'd say your choice of colours looks pretty well spot-on.

I've heard mention of Tamiya Camel yellow (and the confusion over whether it refers to the animal or the tobacco brand!), and thank you for the pointers on the blues.

Hopefully I'll be able to put this to some good use before long, but my USAAC projects have slipped down the pecking order.....

Kind regards,

Mark

[Clifton]

22 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi Jur,

Many, many, many apologies for not having responded sooner - I'm really not sure where the last couple of weeks has gone.....

Your Stearman and Peashooter look excellent, and I'd say your choice of colours looks pretty well spot-on.

I've heard mention of Tamiya Camel yellow (and the confusion over whether it refers to the animal or the tobacco brand!), and thank you for the pointers on the blues.

Hopefully I'll be able to put this to some good use before long, but my USAAC projects have slipped down the pecking order.....

Kind regards,

Mark

I’m pretty sure the name Camel Yellow originates with the color of the Lotus Formula One car sponsored by the Camel tobacco brand.  Don’t forget, Tamiya has a very nice line of model race cars, and they also sell paint to go with them.

 

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ayrton-senna-and-the-final-f1-wins-for-lotus-871703/871703/

[RAS]

As some of my comments and pictures that appear earlier in this thread were from me I suppose should post the end results.

The only problem with building two of the same kit is that you need to make a different set of markings. The blue markings are painted decal paper/paint the other is OTB.

I belong to an American model group and US models said Tamiya Mini XF-3 Flat Yellow Acrylic Paint with a semi-gloss varnish was a good match.

For various reasons end up not using the varnish but overall I think they turned out OK.

IMG_9913 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

IMG_9914 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

IMG_9916 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

IMG_9921 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

IMG_9922 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

IMG_9925 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

IMG_9933 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

[2996 Victor]

Those look fantastic! Can I ask what the kits are and the scale?

Kind regards,

Mark

[RAS]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Those look fantastic! Can I ask what the kits are and the scale?

Kind regards,

Mark

Mark - Scroll back to page 1 of this post and you will see pictures of the kits - they are 1/72 scale

[bertopinal]

 I made some "yellow wing" models using Humbrol colours. For yellow i have the last two tin of the discontinued  188 Chrome Yellow, equivalent to FS 13538. For the Light Blue 23 i made my own recipe with the reference of  The Official Monogram US Army etc. etc.

 The recipe is   HU 47 x 12  /  HU 15 x 3  /  HU 2 x 2  /  HU 22 x 2. 

 

r.