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Late Spitfire F.22 Puzzle - 1951


Ghostbase

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Can anyone help with this Spitfire puzzle? I have several photos taken by my late father when he was posted on a six-week course for 'G' Class reservists at North Luffenham, this was in September/October 1951 and was with 102 Flying Refresher School. This was a very short-lived unit (I believe just 6 months) and they were intended to train reservists to fly modern aircraft. They started with 20 hours on Spitfires and then went on to the Vampire FB.5. According to my father's log book he flew the Spitfire F.22 and he noted all the aircraft codes and serials that he flew. He also took a camera with him and took some photos which I have posted below. The Spitfire F.22s had mostly been sourced from the Auxiliary squadrons, I suspect at quite short notice, and 102 FRS was in effect their swansong.

 

The question I am asking is regards their colour schemes. Some were painted in overall aluminium, some wore camouflage and had different markings as well, and it is the camouflaged Spitfire F.22s which I need help with. On to the first photo:

 

49750224496_56f3f0a591_b.jpgSpitfire22M30NLuffenham51DWB by Michael, on Flickr

 

This is believed to be Spitfire F.22 PK 567 as 'M-30'. Her service history was 33MU 13-10-45 VA EA 6-12-46 mods 502S 'RAC-J' 18-10-48 226OCU 5-3-51 102FRS 24-4-51 nes 16-6-53 sold scrap J.G.Williamson 24-5-54 (taken from airhistory.org.uk)

 

The second photo is believed to be Spitfire F.22 PK 353 as 'M-21'. Her service history was 33MU 28-7-45 VA KEE 8-7-46 mods and Cv 8-7-46 613S 'Q3-H' 'RAT-H' 6-1-49 RCMSU 25-8-49 nea 16-6-53 sold scrap MoS 13-4-54. Interesting because airhistory.org.uk does not list her as serving with 102 FRS but that is what the serial looks like.

 

49494081127_165cfcc77b_c.jpgnluff3 by Michael, on Flickr

 

My specific question is regards the colour of the spinners, the canopy frame on PK 567, and the rudders on both aircraft. I asked this question a long time ago, way before Britmodeller, and I was told by a very well-informed source that the rudders were most likely to have been painted yellow. However, this has been queried in another post in the Spitfire Group Build and I just wondered whether anyone here can help me further with this?

 

Just for the record, one of 102 FRS Spitfire F.22s PK 328 in aluminium:

 

49368261168_94a47c7981_b.jpgSpitfire22PK328NLuffenham51DWB by Michael, on Flickr

 

Thanks

 

Michael

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I'd say that the canopy frame is likely to be Aluminium.

 

There would be nothing unusual about Yellow trim on a training aircraft., and indeed could be expected.  It appears to match the Yellow of the roundel on the first photo, and is different to the red centre of the roundel on both.  The tone is also similar to the ocean grey, but that would be an unusual colour for trim.  However estimating colours from b&w photos is notoriously fraught even with only a small number of options.

 

PS Very interesting photos, I don't think I'd heard of 102 FRS before your posts.

Edited by Graham Boak
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29 minutes ago, Ghostbase said:

Just for the record, one of 102 FRS Spitfire F.22s PK 328 in aluminium:

 

49368261168_94a47c7981_b.jpgSpitf

Don't suppose you know the full codes for this one?  I'm planning to do an F.22 in the GB and want to do a silver one, this one would suit just nicely.

 

Was it just coded N?

 

Interesting detail to be found here, look how the oil leaks from the cowling have been affected by the localised airflow, there's also some exhaust staining and notice the dent in the carburettor intake.

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25 minutes ago, Wez said:

Don't suppose you know the full codes for this one?  I'm planning to do an F.22 in the GB and want to do a silver one, this one would suit just nicely.

 

Was it just coded N?

 

Interesting detail to be found here, look how the oil leaks from the cowling have been affected by the localised airflow, there's also some exhaust staining and notice the dent in the carburettor intake.

Sorry, sadly I don't have a code for this beauty, my father didn't fly PK 328 so it isn't in his logbook. It would have been M, I do know that. Yes there is some great detail in that photo!

 

Michael

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Somewhere I have a reference to an Aluminium painter one on 607 Sq markings, possibly PK613 LA.H but can't confirm that at the moment.  I suspect that Philip Payne was the source.  There is an Aluminium scheme in the 1/72 Airfix kit, with City Of Edinburgh squadron markings.

 

Corrections:  PK603 LA.Q.  Philip Pain

Edited by Graham Boak
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16 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Somewhere I have a reference to an Aluminium painter one on 607 Sq markings, possibly PK613 LA.H but can't confirm that at the moment.  I suspect that Philip Payne was the source.  There is an Aluminium scheme in the 1/72 Airfix kit, with City Of Edinburgh squadron markings.

Thanks Graham, but anyone who has the kit can do the City of Edinburgh markings, I was after something a bit different, the 607 Sqn aircraft would be just that, if it can be verified.

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15 hours ago, Wez said:

Don't suppose you know the full codes for this one?  I'm planning to do an F.22 in the GB and want to do a silver one, this one would suit just nicely.

 

Was it just coded N?

 

Interesting detail to be found here, look how the oil leaks from the cowling have been affected by the localised airflow, there's also some exhaust staining and notice the dent in the carburettor intake.

There were  two books  published showing  colour schemes of RAF training aircraft, Im sure that one of them in vol 2 had a colour plate of a silver F22 of 102 FRS. I have them in the library somewhere but I cant access them at the present moment.

 

Selwyn

 

Edited by Selwyn
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23 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

There were  two books  published showing  colour schemes of RAF training aircraft, Im sure that one of them in vol 2 had a colour plate of a silver F22 of 102 FRS. I have them in the library somewhere but I cant access them at the present moment.

 

Selwyn

 

Are these the AirFile books Selwyn?  In which case I have those, never thought to look there!  :doh:

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58 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

There were  two books  published showing  colour schemes of RAF training aircraft, Im sure that one of them in vol 2 had a colour plate of a silver F22 of 102 FRS. I have them in the library somewhere but I cant access them at the present moment.

 

Selwyn

 

I've just checked mine. Serial number PK399, coded '50-M', with long cannon barrels and, interestingly, no underwing serials or roundels.

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3 hours ago, Truro Model Builder said:

I've just checked mine. Serial number PK399, coded '50-M', with long cannon barrels and, interestingly, no underwing serials or roundels.

Just dug mine out, that's the one for me! 

 

I've just found a photo of the actual aircraft here, although it's small, a roundel can clearly be seen under the starboard wing so if the profile is based upon a view of the aircraft's port side I can only surmise the aircraft had a replacement wing fitted which had yet to be painted up with the serial number and roundel.  I'll go with the photo.

 

Interestingly, the photo of PK328 in Michael's earlier post shows capped cannon stubs, I think PK353 (21-M) has full sized cannon fairings so maybe had the cannon fitted, I can't see them clearly enough in the photo of PK567 (30-M).  Maybe some were armed for gunnery practice and other's weren't?

 

EDIT:  Just had a closer look at the photos of 21-M and 30-M and they certainly have the longer cannon fairings fitted, whether the cannons were fitted is a matter of conjecture.

 

 

Michael, @Ghostbase firstly, apologies for hijacking your thread but your interesting photos piqued my interest, fascinating subject.  Secondly, do you have any clear views of other aircraft showing their cannon barrels?

Edited by Wez
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Although I have nothing constructive to add to this thread, thank you for the interesting photos. The 22/24 is one of my favourite marks and new photos are always good to see. The aircraft in the first photo looks a bit tired to me. Seems very much their swansong. 

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25 minutes ago, Wez said:

I've just found a photo of the actual aircraft here, although it's small, a roundel can clearly be seen under the starboard wing so if the profile is based upon a view of the aircraft's port side I can only surmise the aircraft had a replacement wing fitted which had yet to be painted up with the serial number and roundel.  I'll go with the photo.

or the profile is wrong..... which never ever happens.....

 

This is the original thread started by Michael 

 

 

16 hours ago, Wez said:

I was after something a bit different, the 607 Sqn aircraft would be just that, if it can be verified.

The  4+ Spitfire 22/24 book in some cases comes with a decal sheet.

http://www.4pluspublications.com/en/publications/28-spitfire-mk2224-colours-and-markings

which has a couple of sliver 22's on the sheet

PK577 D-DW, and PK562, RAV-R

 

the book has a photo of PK550/ RAV-M in silver., and I'm sure there are more on Cold war Shield 1.

HTH

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26 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

or the profile is wrong..... which never ever happens.....

No, your signature line was ringing in my ears as I typed.

 

27 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

This is the original thread started by Michael 

Yes, I'd seen that thanks.

 

27 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The  4+ Spitfire 22/24 book in some cases comes with a decal sheet.

http://www.4pluspublications.com/en/publications/28-spitfire-mk2224-colours-and-markings

which has a couple of sliver 22's on the sheet

PK577 D-DW, and PK562, RAV-R

Yes, I have the book and I'd seen those, they remain an option.  Sadly, my copy of the book didn't come with decals.

 

29 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

the book has a photo of PK550/ RAV-M in silver

The squadron crest on the fin is the tricky beggar there though.

 

30 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

and I'm sure there are more on Cold war Shield 1.

HTH

Now there's a book I wish I'd bought when it came out, it's rarer than hen's teeth and cost an arm and two legs when it does come up for sale.

 

Thanks for your help Troy.

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The only picture l have of my father-in-law is him standing by the entrance to the cockpit of which looks like PK 567 M-30. The door is open and the canopy is slid back and looks aluminium in colour. I have another one of him and a bunch of airmen standing in front of PK 567 but from a distance. The propeller nose is a different tonal colour and the tips of the propeller does not have the yellow tips !

 

Regards

Robert

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12 hours ago, Robert said:

The only picture l have of my father-in-law is him standing by the entrance to the cockpit of which looks like PK 567 M-30. The door is open and the canopy is slid back and looks aluminium in colour. I have another one of him and a bunch of airmen standing in front of PK 567 but from a distance. The propeller nose is a different tonal colour and the tips of the propeller does not have the yellow tips !

 

Regards

Robert

Thanks for looking, Robert, is appreciated 🖕

 

Michael

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Many thanks for all the replies and especially for the various references, I think I have got enough details to be able to build something that looks realistic anyway.

 

I think that 102 FRS, along with 103 FRS which was based at Full Sutton, were such sort-lived units formed in such a hurry with such a collection of hand-me-down aircraft that there is likely no definitive answer to my question above. It certainly was the swansong for the Spitfire 22 in Royal Air Force service which is what makes it so interesting.

 

Michael

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On 4/10/2020 at 3:49 PM, Wez said:

 

The squadron crest on the fin is the tricky beggar there though.

 

102 FRS was such a short lived unit it would not have had a Squadron crest granted.  What  you see would probably be the RAF North Luffenham crest.

 

Selwyn

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There is a photo of 607 Squadron's silver F22 here, along with the some of the squadron's camouflaged aircraft:

 

https://www.mirrorpix.com/?11808328521720195614&MEDIANUMBER=00357383

 

You can just make out the LA code on the right hand aircraft, and there is a 607 Squadron badge on the nose of the left-hand Spitfire.

 

Cheers


Simon

 

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1 hour ago, Selwyn said:

102 FRS was such a short lived unit it would not have had a Squadron crest granted.  What  you see would probably be the RAF North Luffenham crest.

 

Selwyn

No, RAV-M is a 615 Sqn RAuxAF aircraft.  It's in the 4+/Mark-1 book.

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26 minutes ago, Wez said:

No, RAV-M is a 615 Sqn RAuxAF aircraft.  It's in the 4+/Mark-1 book.

Wez

I was referring to the crest on PK 353 as "M-21" (second picture on original post).

 

Selwyn

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15 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Wez

I was referring to the crest on PK 353 as "M-21" (second picture on original post).

 

Selwyn

Ah yes, I hadn't noticed it because I was looking to do a silver aircraft.  But thanks for pointing it out, you're probably right about it being the North Luffenham station badge or possibly something left over from its previous unit?

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1 minute ago, Wez said:

Ah yes, I hadn't noticed it because I was looking to do a silver aircraft.  But thanks for pointing it out, you're probably right about it being the North Luffenham station badge or possibly something left over from its previous unit?

I think its the Luffenham crest. If you look at the top (first) picture the crest from the previous user has obviously been painted out. If you are putting your own  markings  you would remove all previous markings.

 

Selwyn

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