Spitfire IXe Painting question

[Gundylunch]

Hi,

I'm currently building an Eduard Spitfire and have a couple of questions, 1st the simple one, the spinner on the one I'm completing is red, should this be roundel red ?, secondly the slots in the backplate where the prop sits into should that be red as well or white as seen in the following picture (Credit to Randy Malstrom ) 

 

 

[Work In Progress]

That backplate isn't white, it's Sky.

Turning to your question directly, we have no chance of answering unless you say which airframe you are modelling in what time period, and ideally have a photograph of it

 

[Gundylunch]

36 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

That backplate isn't white, it's Sky.

Turning to your question directly, we have no chance of answering unless you say which airframe you are modelling in what time period, and ideally have a photograph of it

 

This is the kit, the option I'm making is :- Maj.Cecil Gouldings CA G RK856 SAAF 1945, the instructions do infer the backplate is to be painted white but it is Sky in the photo !!

 

 

Particular aircraft is bottom row far right

[Giorgio N]

There are many recorded instances of white backplates on MTO Spitfires, so this colour is very plausible. Not your aircraft and not the same unit, but have a look at this video from around 1:21, you'll see a very good example of such a combination.

 

 

I have also read of how the backplates were sometime brought to natural metal for some reason related to maintenance (can't remember off my head the details), however in the rare color pictures from the era white seems to be the norm.

As to why the backplate was in white, my guess would be to make leaks more easily visible, but it's just a guess.

Regarding which red, the same red used in the roundels was sure used but I've also seen pictures showing a more brilliant red. Of course it could just be a matter of how the same paint can end up looking different according to how it was applied. In doubt, using the same red is a safe bet

Edited April 7, 2020 by Giorgio N

[Chuck1945]

One possible note on the spinner’s red color; SAAF typically used a more orange red in their roundel than did RAF. No idea if the Eduard kit reflects this or not (I don’t have it) but if the original aircraft painter used what was on hand for red, it may not have been RAF roundel red...

[72modeler]

Possibly, since it more than likely that this Mk IX was delivered with a sky spinner and fuselage band, it is very possible that the back plate was left in sky, as it did not need to be removed when the spinner was painted red, so I think Giorgio's supposition is correct. I don't have a period photo of this Spitfire, but from the looks of the painting guide, it appears to me that the existing sky fuselage band had a red band painted in the middle. As to what red was used, I have no idea- could have been roundel red or possibly orange, to mimic the colors of that nation.

Mike

Edited April 6, 2020 by 72modeler

[Seahawk]

I think you can argue this one any way you want.

 

Facts:

• Dull red spinners were the theatre identification marking..
• .. except for 43 Sq who used bright red throughout (Jimmy Beedle's history of the squadron is quite explicit about this.)
•  The red stripe through the Sky band is nonstandard.  We do not know if it was an identification aid or just decoration.

Argument:

The spinner was almost certainly painted dull red on the aircraft's arrival in theatre.  If the red band was a serious identification feature, it may well have been in dull red too.  If it was just adornment, it could be in any red paint in hand, including bright red.  And, if you are into tarting up the aircraft with a few colourful touches, you might decide to repaint the spinner while you were at it.

 

So: both dull red or dull red spinner and bright red band or both bright red.  IMHO there is a rationale for each.

 

Assuming neither of them was South African orange....

[Giorgio N]

I realised that I mentioned a video in my previous post but forgot the link... now added

[Stefaan]

Hi.

Cecil Golding's Spitfire would have had Orange centres in the roundels.

The SAAF continued to paint there spinners red, and would have been standard red according to the D.T.D. orders  issued last, in this case probably 1943 issue.

Lewis and Berger, which supplied our paints, got the specs from the UK, so would have matched it. I am sure it will have corresponded to RAF red, both on the spinner and the fuselage stripe. 

[Stefaan]

Hi.

Red spec was 33b/175 from Lewis and Berger. From D.T.D 1943.

Stefaan

[Gundylunch]

Well.thank you Guys for some enlightenment !! - Amazing amount of knowledge and an entertaining video clip, I'm going to plump for white backplate ring with red "scallops " and red spinner, interestingly the paint guide also indicates a white aerial mast !!

 

Thank you all !!

[Hornet133]

There is a photo of CA-G in that scheme on this page   'file:///G:/Pictures/SAAF/Cecil%20Golding%205,7,1%20and%203%20Sqns%20SAAF/Cecil%20Golding%20photographs%203.htm'

 

scroll down to photo no 327 to see it.

 

Steve Mackenzie

[Gundylunch]

Thanks Steve, couldn't find my way with that link but did find these 2 pics which did clarify things for me !!

 

 

 

Photo's via Tinus Le Roux

[Selwyn]

22 hours ago, Stefaan said:

Hi.

Red spec was 33b/175 from Lewis and Berger. From D.T.D 1943.

Stefaan

33B/175 is not a paint spec its  a RAF  stores section and reference number its purpose is to enable you to order the paint.

It isnt definitive,  you could have several different section and reference numbers relating to this same colour paint. For example this reference number may relate to a five gallon can of red paint, a ten gallon can of the exact same red paint would have  a different section and reference number.

 

Selwyn

[draggie748]

17 hours ago, Gundylunch said:

Well.thank you Guys for some enlightenment !! - Amazing amount of knowledge and an entertaining video clip, I'm going to plump for white backplate ring with red "scallops " and red spinner, interestingly the paint guide also indicates a white aerial mast !!

 

Thank you all !!

The backing plate included the scallops in it and was not removable without removing the propellor. the spinner would be removed to be painted RED in line with Desert Air Force orders. The backing plate would have remained in the Sky it was originally painted in, the scallops actually go around the prop blades and the blades would have needed masking to repaint and therefore would have been left in their original colour, especially in an operational area.

HTH

Phil

Canberra, Australia.

[Graham Boak]

14 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

33B/175 is not a paint spec its  a RAF  stores section and reference number its purpose is to enable you to order the paint.

It isnt definitive,  you could have several different section and reference numbers relating to this same colour paint. For example this reference number may relate to a five gallon can of red paint, a ten gallon can of the exact same red paint would have  a different section and reference number.

 

Selwyn

Yes, but it would define the colour as opposed to any other colour.  You will also find different numbers allocated to the same colour but different chemical constituents, eg those suitable for fabric as opposed to those suitable for metals.  This would certainly be relevant to this period.

[PLC1966]

33A for Ground Paints, 33B for Air paints.

 

DMC 34 for Fuels, Oils & Lubricants

[Giorgio N]

12 minutes ago, draggie748 said:

The backing plate included the scallops in it and was not removable without removing the propellor. the spinner would be removed to be painted RED in line with Desert Air Force orders. The backing plate would have remained in the Sky it was originally painted in, the scallops actually go around the prop blades and the blades would have needed masking to repaint and therefore would have been left in their original colour, especially in an operational area.

HTH

Phil

Canberra, Australia.

 

I would disagree with this as there are several cases where the use of white for the  spinner backplate is clearly visible in colour pictures and films of the time. And of course there are plenty of pictures showing spinners completely repainted in a different colour. I don't doubt that there would have been cases where the backplate simply retained the original Sky paint, and this makes sense when it comes to the repainting process, but this does not seem to have necessarily been the norm

[Stefaan]

 This is the nearest document I can now find to give an indication for D.T D. specs and store numbers and names.

I realize it is related to an American produced paint initially, but the corresponding RAF/SAAF specs and store numbers are included. 

[Selwyn]

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Yes, but it would define the colour as opposed to any other colour.  You will also find different numbers allocated to the same colour but different chemical constituents, eg those suitable for fabric as opposed to those suitable for metals.  This would certainly be relevant to this period.

Yes it would get you the right colour graham, but it is not the specification!

 

Selwyn

[Work In Progress]

23 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I would disagree with this as there are several cases where the use of white for the  spinner backplate is clearly visible in colour pictures and films of the time. And of course there are plenty of pictures showing spinners completely repainted in a different colour. I don't doubt that there would have been cases where the backplate simply retained the original Sky paint, and this makes sense when it comes to the repainting process, but this does not seem to have necessarily been the norm

I agree that it's possible for the backplate to have been painted white, without removing the prop. We can already see that someone on that unit has too much free time, having taken a paint brush to the aerial mast for no  good reason,  and while you have the dome off being painted red it would not be the trickiest job to brush-paint the backplate in white without getting any on the blades. A bit of wet newspaper would be adequate blade masking

Edited April 9, 2020 by Work In Progress