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Sunderland in Med colour questions


JWM

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Hi,

Thinking about doing next flying boat in a series time for Sunderland is coming to me... I have Italeri kit (which needs of course correction of surface :( ) but I am looking for interesting scheme from Mediterranea Sea (or South Atlantic). 

 

I've bumped on the thread in GB

 

There is photo of Sunderand mkI NM-V 

f2ac3e525bb3cf1f8f04cf00e82d04d7.jpg&key

 

It is said that she flight over Greeks island. Low contrast on this machine suggest EDSG/DSG from top (black undersurfaces) but this machine is presented in profiles as wearing in Greece campaign early scheme DKE/DKG/black. 

Sorry for my ignorance, but where is truth? 

 

BTW - there interesting photo is shown 

https://philatelicpursuits.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/short-sunderland-raf-1940-castelrosso.jpg

I am giving only link here since I do not have rights to it but I doubt that it is really from Grece 1940, since for me the style of finflash and fuselage roundels (C1) is after 1943...

 

Maybe it was discussed on BM but I have not found it

Regards

J-W

 

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1 hour ago, JWM said:

t is said that she flight over Greeks island. Low contrast on this machine suggest EDSG/DSG from top (black undersurfaces) but this machine is presented in profiles as wearing in Greece campaign early scheme DKE/DKG/black. 

Sorry for my ignorance, but where is truth? 

It would be a 228 Squadron Sunderland (Mk I), I would say it would be

wearing EDSG/DSG especially circa 1941, if involved in rescuing British

Personnel

Edit - Sunderland's with NM codes RAF 230 Squadron

Regards

 

Alan

Edited by LDSModeller
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Not C1 roundels but A1, in the style introduced in May 1940.   The white of the fin flash is too wide, and the flash itself too tall, to be the 1942 style  So certainly appropriate for the Greek campaign.  I agree with the scheme being EDSG/DSG, and suspect that suggestions of DG/DE were due to a lack of knowledge by early commentators/artists, and their work being repeated.  I believe that there have been some reputable claims to have seen Sunderland's In this land-based scheme, but suspect some error.

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Graham, I think JWM's comment about the C1 roundel refers to the second photo that he linked to, not the one posted above. The other photo certainly doesn't date from 1940 as apart from the style of roundel and fin flash the Sunderland has an FN7 turret.

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Ooops.  Agreed.  Note also the ASV masts.  I suggest that this one is also in TSS because of the extreme variability of this scheme depending upon lighting, film, filters and reproduction.  Plus the sheer unlikelihood of it being anything else.

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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Not C1 roundels but A1, in the style introduced in May 1940.   The white of the fin flash is too wide, and the flash itself too tall, to be the 1942 style 

Thank you, but my comment referred  to the photo in link, not the one paste in the post, on which it is of course the A1. Please have a look on it...

Regards

J-W

 

EDIT - sorry, I replied not reading whole story... :)

Edited by JWM
correction
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13 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 I agree with the scheme being EDSG/DSG, and suspect that suggestions of DG/DE were due to a lack of knowledge by early commentators/artists, and their work being repeated.  I believe that there have been some reputable claims to have seen Sunderland's in this land-based scheme, but suspect some error.

Of course I don't pretend to be an expert there, but there's some huge English book in the Polish Aviation Museum library (closed now due to the COVID emergency) - regrettably I don't remember the author, but the title is something like "Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1910-55" (the dates are not sure). But perhaps it is well known to most of you in Britain. It was issued in the 1960s and it features (among plenty of colour profiles) also the (printed) paint chips for all the RAF/FAA WW2 colours. Do you know what book am I talking about? 

And in this book, within the caption covering the Coastal Command aircraft, the author states that in 1939-41 period all "older" flying boats carried TSS of DSG/EDSG while the G.R. landplanes (i.e. Hudsons and Ansons) and SUNDERLANDS were painted in TLS of DG/DE. I know that during last 50 years plenty of new material appeared, but IMHO the colours on this "Greek" Sunderland photos don't look like the TSS ones.

Cheers

Michael

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52 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

And in this book, within the caption covering the Coastal Command aircraft, the author states that in 1939-41 period all "older" flying boats carried TSS of DSG/EDSG while the G.R. landplanes (i.e. Hudsons and Ansons) and SUNDERLANDS were painted in TLS of DG/DE. I know that during last 50 years plenty of new material appeared, but IMHO the colours on this "Greek" Sunderland photos don't look like the TSS ones.

In the 1960/70' some chappie wrote an article on the 4 RNZAF Mk III Sunderland's

which arrived from Britain circa December 1944 wearing TLS. We now know

that article was based on hearsay/guesstimation by the author, as the Boats were

actually in TSS.

In the photo link below the Sunderland is either a Mk II or Mk III. If you look closely,

you can see the Upper turret/fairing. If at least a MK II (late production), I would not see

it wearing TLS.

Sunderland at Castelrosso

 

Of the other Mk I's in the link/post above, given the time frame I would have them in TSS not TLS

 

Regards

 

Alan

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Coincidentally, I was reading correspondence on British and USN camouflage in the MTO written on 18 July 1943 by Robert V. Cosel, the intelligence officer for Fleet Air Wing 7.

 

The second paragraph seems to fit this discussion:

 

"I finally got up to the "Rock" to check on the Sunderland and the following is about as much as I have on the subject.

 

"Flat white is considered the best in this area.  The top of the wings and fuselage are painted blue, or blue and green streaks, if the plane operated in an area where enemy aircraft are expected.  The principal thing is to have all under and side surfaces white.  A dull non reflecting paint is the best.  There is a possibility of some flashing when you are down sun but the general good points of white outweigh this bad quality....

 

"At Gib I was told their then [sic] policies were dictated by the headquarters of Coastal and that all white was uniform throughout Coastal.  The tops of their wings and fuselage are blue-green, however.  I found out that no Sunderland was attached there for operations and that those that passed through were all-white.  The Hudsons and Wellingtons in the Mediterranean are the same as the others.  I was some [sic] operating out of Oran.  Gib said that they had not done any experimenting there but just took orders from Coastal."

 

[I'm pretty sure his typewriter didn't have spell checker!]

 

I wonder if the "blue" noted in this report was one of the Med Blues, or if it was a poor explanation of Extra Dark Sea Gray.  I suspect the former (as the AAF's B-24s were repainted one of the Med Blues before leaving England for the MTO) but I can't offer proof.  The "green" could have been an interpretation of Dark Slate Gray, or something more exotic?

 

I know this isn't much help, but at least we know we're not talking Dark Earth and Dark Green at this date...

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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2 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Of course I don't pretend to be an expert there, but there's some huge English book in the Polish Aviation Museum library (closed now due to the COVID emergency) - regrettably I don't remember the author, but the title is something like "Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1910-55" (the dates are not sure). But perhaps it is well known to most of you in Britain. It was issued in the 1960s and it features (among plenty of colour profiles) also the (printed) paint chips for all the RAF/FAA WW2 colours. Do you know what book am I talking about? 

Well remembered: that sounds like Bruce Robertson's "Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954".

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43 minutes ago, Dana Bell said:

I wonder if the "blue" noted in this report was one of the Med Blues, or if it was a poor explanation of Extra Dark Sea Gray.  I suspect the former (as the AAF's B-24s were repainted one of the Med Blues before leaving England for the MTO) but I can't offer proof.  The "green" could have been an interpretation of Dark Slate Gray, or something more exotic?

Given that both 228 and 230 Squadrons brought with them or received

aircraft, that were not necessarily brand new, then that could account for

difference in paint colours, that had already been weathered.

 

Take for example this Mk I Sunderland, being readied for ferry to 95 Squadron

in West Africa, Sunderland Mk I L5802 (SE-F)

Sunderland+L5802+SEF+95+Sqn+June+1941.jp

 

This (from memory) had been "requisitioned" from 210 Squadron based at

Oban which had already been in operational use, and was being sent to make up for

aircraft losses, while the Squadron transitioned through Gibraltar.

Basic maintenance was carried out (not including re-paints to speed up the process),

though it should be noted the ailerons are being replaced or repainted.

 

It's quite possible that the Blue/Green were identified mis-identified

 

Regards

 

Alan

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1 hour ago, Dana Bell said:

blue, or blue and green streaks

Classic description of Extra Dark Sea Grey, or EDSG/Dark Slate Grey camouflage.

If I was an intelligence officer from the army describing the picture above I'd say it was

"steel blue with bright mid-green patches and pale blue ailerons#" and the markings are "mid-blue and orange roundels with white letters"

You are better off with black and white pictures I think!

 

#except he would call them flaps

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7 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

In the 1960/70' some chappie wrote an article on the 4 RNZAF Mk III Sunderland's which arrived from Britain circa December 1944 wearing TLS. We now know that article was based on hearsay/guesstimation by the author, as the Boats were actually in TSS.

In the photo link below the Sunderland is either a Mk II or Mk III. If you look closely, you can see the Upper turret/fairing. If at least a MK II (late production), I would not see  it wearing TLS.

Sunderland at Castelrosso

Of the other Mk I's in the link/post above, given the time frame I would have them in TSS not TLS

Surely in 1944 (and even in 1942) there should be no trace of any TLS on the Sunderlands.

But the picture JWM was asking about dates from 1940/early 1941 latest.

Same applies to te Night undersides clearly seen there...

6 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Coincidentally, I was reading correspondence on British and USN camouflage in the MTO written on 18 July 1943 by Robert V. Cosel, the intelligence officer for Fleet Air Wing 7.

I wonder if the "blue" noted in this report was one of the Med Blues, or if it was a poor explanation of Extra Dark Sea Gray.  I suspect the former (as the AAF's B-24s were repainted one of the Med Blues before leaving England for the MTO) but I can't offer proof.  The "green" could have been an interpretation of Dark Slate Gray, or something more exotic?

I know this isn't much help, but at least we know we're not talking Dark Earth and Dark Green at this date...

Exactly as you said - I'm also not talking about DE and DG at this (July 1943) date. Nor about the black undersides.

And IMHO the "...top of the wings and fuselage are painted blue, or blue and green streaks..." mentioned by R. Cosel do precisely apply to the two late-war variants of the Coastal Command aircraft uppersurfaces: plain EDSG and Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey camo. Although both paints are called "greys", one of them features decidely bluish hue, while another is almost the olive green.

5 hours ago, KevinK said:

Well remembered: that sounds like Bruce Robertson's "Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954".

Confirmed within the web - this is the book I'm talking about. Should we consider it "a Bible" or totally rubbish from the 21st Century point of view?

Cheers

Michael

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6 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

..not including repaints...

The condition of the colour scheme shows that this cannot be correct.  No waterline stains, no exhaust stains.  Either the aircraft was repainted or this is another aircraft.

 

KRK4m: A Bible for 1955, but our information has moved along a lot since then.  Even so, for British camouflage it was best read in conjunction with its later companion Aircraft Markings of the World, in particular the diary of changes at the rear.

 

I had forgotten this, I was thinking of an article by Peter Cooksley in a later modelling magazine.  However if there was no specific reference to the Sunderland in the relevant AMO, then  considerable doubt has to be placed on these references.  Further backup not based on simple repetition would be needed.   It is difficult to think of any reason why the Sunderland should have been an exception.

 

As for the retention of TSS on top of White well after the call for simple EDSG, this can also be seen on Halifaxes into 1944, which suggests that repainting the tops of large aircraft in service was not seen as a priority.  Just too much effort, I suggest.  It will have been done on recall to MUs for major overhauls (perhaps).

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1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

But the picture JWM was asking about dates from 1940/early 1941 latest.

For one, the Aircraft in question is some distance away, so a little hard to

really tell if it is Dk Earth/Dk Green or TSS......

If you look at these 230 Squadron aircraft circa same time in Greece

the latter one in the photo certainly looks TSS (From IWM website)

large_000000.jpg

 

23 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The condition of the colour scheme shows that this cannot be correct.  No waterline stains, no exhaust stains.  Either the aircraft was repainted or this is another aircraft.

Always a possibility agreed, but waterline stains etc can be cleaned off.

Reading the different accounts of the 95 Squadron, this is how it was told.

 

Photos (Colour) of  RNZAF Sunderland after beaching for Servicing/Maintenance.

do not show full repaints even in peacetime. but  showing where waterline stains etc

had been cleaned (white is easier to see it).

 

 

Edited by LDSModeller
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1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

 

Confirmed within the web - this is the book I'm talking about. Should we consider it "a Bible" or totally rubbish from the 21st Century point of view?

Cheers

Michael

 

Yes I have a copy of that - I bought in the early 60s. Even then it was looking hopelessly dated and lacking in detail, although it contained some useful basic stuff.  What did strike me was that when it was published, only ten years had elapsed from the end of the war and yet all the historical memory of the period re colour and markings etc. seemed to have evaporated. The late 40s and 50s seemed to have been a period of mass amnesia as regards the technical details of the conflict. Everyone knew what a Spitfire was but this was the period when that awful Aurora kit and the 1/72 scale clone of it by Airfix represented the state of the art Spitfire model. We've come a long way.  

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Hang on.  Those kits were toys.  In those days the modelling world was represented by magazines such as Aeromodeller, in which you could find much more detailed information and models - not to mention something like complete disdain for these new-fangled plastics!  Even then, some of the early plastic kits were considerably superior to those particular examples.  However there was not so much amnesia as lack of published information and lack of publishable information.  Secrecy still reigned.  Details were simply not available, and distribution of what was available was much more limited.  What was available - such as the drawings in the wartime Aircraft of the Fighting Powers books - began to be used by the kit manufacturers but these were limited by what was available in wartime, and many of the mistakes and misunderstandings made with the very best intentions have become established "fact" and are still bouncing around in the hobby today despite being pure myths.  Quite apart from all the others invented since, as writers struggled to satisfy a growing market for such things in a still-disconnected world.   A historian may be bound to established facts (yeah, really) as far as he knows them, but even then has trouble if they do not fit within his or the established "world picture".  A writer has to tell a story, and even more so a journalist, so gaps have to be filled by "best guesses" and "reasonable extrapolations" or, inevitably, "what some guy told me in a bar once".  Or, if we they were lucky, so some guy in Germany in a similar position but trying to make sense out of fragments of truth buried in propaganda and wishful thinking.

 

The Harleyford books were linked to the MAP stable of writers and modellers which included such important (and knowledgeable) contributors such as Bruce Robertson.  These were to produce many of the superior plans that formed the basis of the UK hobby in the following years, although even then some have since been found to contain errors.  It was not until the 70s and 80s that draughtsmen such as A.L. Bentley could produce drawings that still bear up today.  And even Homer nodded sometimes...  We must he incredibly grateful to these people and their 1950s works: but not use them uncritically now.

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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

KRK4m: A Bible for 1955, but our information has moved along a lot since then.  Even so, for British camouflage it was best read in conjunction with its later companion Aircraft Markings of the World, in particular the diary of changes at the rear.

I had forgotten this, I was thinking of an article by Peter Cooksley in a later modelling magazine.  However if there was no specific reference to the Sunderland in the relevant AMO, then  considerable doubt has to be placed on these references.  Further backup not based on simple repetition would be needed.   It is difficult to think of any reason why the Sunderland should have been an exception.

OK, my point of view is exactly the same. Nevertheless the question remains: why did Bruce Robertson underline the 1939-41 Sunderlands in the Coastal Command caption as being the exception to the rule? All flying boats "except the Sunderland" in TSS and "GR Hudsons and Ansons as well as Sunderland flying boats in TLS" ?

1 hour ago, LDSModeller said:

For one, the Aircraft in question is some distance away, so a little hard to really tell if it is Dk Earth/Dk Green or TSS......

If you look at these 230 Squadron aircraft circa same time in Greece the latter one in the photo certainly looks TSS (From IWM website)

IMHO the contrast is too sharp for the TSS. On the other hand the lighter shade (Dark Earth in TLS or Dark Slate Grey in TSS) is a little bit too light for the DE, but this can be the result of the Mediterranean sunshine.

1 hour ago, MilneBay said:

 

Yes I have a copy of that - I bought in the early 60s. Even then it was looking hopelessly dated and lacking in detail, although it contained some useful basic stuff.  What did strike me was that when it was published, only ten years had elapsed from the end of the war and yet all the historical memory of the period re colour and markings etc. seemed to have evaporated. ... We've come a long way.  

If you have the copy, would you please be so kind and find the Coastal Command 1939-41 caption I try to refer to. I have read this book 50 years ago, making hundreds of notes in my "aviation modelling" copy-books. I would like only to know, whether I remember the Bruce Robertson words properly.

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Harleyford books were linked to the MAP stable of writers and modellers which included such important (and knowledgeable) contributors such as Bruce Robertson.  These were to produce many of the superior plans that formed the basis of the UK hobby in the following years, although even then some have since been found to contain errors.  ...  And even Homer nodded sometimes...  We must he incredibly grateful to these people and their 1950s works: but not use them uncritically now.

Exactly - for all of us born before the 1970s the books like Green/Swanborough "Warplanes of the Second World War"  (10 volumes), some dozen vollmes of "The Pocket Encyclopedia of World Aircraft in Colour" by Kenneth Munson and 250+ Profile Publications laid the foundations for our knowledge of the aviation history. Of course we could absolve Bruce Robertson if he had painted the Sunderland profile in TLS. But he has said it expressis verbis... Twice !

Cheers

Michael

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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 We must he incredibly grateful to these people and their 1950s works: but not use them uncritically now.

The key word in the 2nd half of that sentence is "uncritically".  And I agree entirely that Robertson's work, as pretty much the first in the field apart from Aircraft of the Fighting Powers, will require more exercise of that critical faculty than many later books.

 

But, as time goes by, I would hate the idea to take root that, if it wasn't published, say, this century (or even worse if it's not on the internet!), it should be discounted.  I have in mind MJF Bowyer's works on Bombing, Fighting and Coastal colours.  There was a time when these were dismissed because "we know so much better now".  I think the tide has turned and we are value them again, as a repository of firsthand contemporary observations by an interested observer: still not to be read uncritically, because there are things we know (as opposed to have opinions/speculate on) now that he didn't know and couldn't have known when he was writing, but equally not to be dismissed out of hand. 

 

Thinks: Bowyer wrote an article in an old Airfix Magazine Annual on coastal colours: I wonder what he had to say about early war colours.

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33 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

But, as time goes by, I would hate the idea to take root that, if it wasn't published, say, this century (or even worse if it's not on the internet!), it should be discounted. 

Minor philosophical addition:

What happens with all that valuable research on various sites & blogs when the author is deceased and the hosting bills stop getting paid?
They're just bits and bytes to the hoster. 

There's something to be said for old-fashioned print work.

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TSS can appear with very different contrasts in different films: however having two different contrasts in one photo is rather more difficult to understand.  I wouldn't rule it out entirely in terms of differential fading.  I would however add that because of the blue content, it is the EDSG that can appear the lighter colour, notably on ortho film.  (The long standing discussion of the Ark Royal photo of a Skua demonstrated that, but there are also photos of Sea Gladiators on Malta that show the same effect.)  That Dark Earth faded in tropical conditions is quite true, but on ortho film the DE will normally appear dark, with only a small contrast to the Dark Green.

 

So the question then is: which colour (in either scheme) fits the pattern?  Comparing the distant aircraft with the colour photo, it is the lighter colour that appears in the place of EDSG.  Looking at the nearer aircraft and comparing again, there appear to be signs of local repainting on both at the base of the fin, but again it is the lighter colour that sits where EDSG should be.  Where should the DE be on TLS for Sunderlands?  Following A.864/44 the pattern for 4-engined monoplanes (unfortunately the opposite hand) we see that what is the EDSG in the colour photo is unshaded in the plan, and paras 29 and 30 (excluding large aircraft in Coastal Command, which don't appear anywhere) states that this should be EDSG; whereas a reference for Bomber Command (large aircraft in TLS) states that the unshaded areas should be Dark Earth.  So on both aircraft the lighter colour should either be EDSG or DG, and the latter seems most unlikely indeed.

 

The first reference to colour in British Aviation Colours of WW2 unfortunately is only A.926/40 of 12/1940, where it states that such aircraft as Sunderlands should be in TSS  This does leave open the question of examples in the Greek campaign remaining in an earlier scheme, but I think the analysis of the b&w shades discounts this.  Of course, we can never rule out the existence of exchanged colours in a scheme, but this is rare at best and not (AFAIK) shown on large aircraft.

 

Alan; perhaps you could give the date of the colour photo?  I suspect it is after 12/40 - certainly later than May 1940.  The Swordfish in the background is still in Sky Grey, which strictly would have been superseded in September 1940 but somehow I doubt this as good dating evidence!

 

Seahawk:  I loved Bowyer's books, but he is depending largely on unofficial sources.  His personal observations are fascinating and very useful, but the books were published before the current access "privileged" sources for dating and official schemes, so lack much correct terminology and rely very much on the collection of individual observations.  (Which is why they are much weaker once he strays outside the UK.)  The value of differing colour perceptions is too well known to stress here.  However, I have to hand his booklet for PSL RAF Camouflage of WW2, which states: "… from the autumn of 1939, whereby flying-boats, when beached for a major overhaul -...- were repainted in the Temperate Sea Scheme., their undersurfaces remaining medium grey."  This does show that prewar, and early in the war, Sunderlands were indeed seen in TLS.  Which can justify the comments by Robertson, Cooksley, and probably others.  However for such a scheme to have lasted until April 1941 would suggest rather a disproportionate delay for that aircraft's last major.

Edited by Graham Boak
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On 4/1/2020 at 10:15 AM, JWM said:

There is photo of Sunderand mkI NM-V 

f2ac3e525bb3cf1f8f04cf00e82d04d7.jpg&key

 

 

7 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Two 230 Squadron aircraft

large_000000.jpg

 

 

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

TSS can appear with very different contrasts in different films: however having two different contrasts in one photo is rather more difficult to understand.  I wouldn't rule it out entirely in terms of differential fading.  I would however add that because of the blue content, it is the EDSG that can appear the lighter colour, notably on ortho film.  That Dark Earth faded in tropical conditions is quite true, but on ortho film the DE will normally appear dark, with only a small contrast to the Dark Green.

 

However, I have to hand his booklet for PSL RAF Camouflage of WW2, which states: "… from the autumn of 1939, whereby flying-boats, when beached for a major overhaul -...- were repainted in the Temperate Sea Scheme., their undersurfaces remaining medium grey."  This does show that prewar, and early in the war, Sunderlands were indeed seen in TLS.  Which can justify the comments by Robertson, Cooksley, and probably others.  However for such a scheme to have lasted until April 1941 would suggest rather a disproportionate delay for that aircraft's last major.

So above we have two photos and the 2nd one (two 230 Sq. aircraft) I see the case signalled by you: two different contrasts in one photo. But neither of these pictures is the ortho film case - the yellow surround in A1 roundels is visible as extremely light. The question remains whether the NM@V (also not an ortho film) from the first picture should look like the aircraft close to the camera or like the distant one from the second picture. And which one from the second photo sports the TSS and which the TLS?

Anyway Robertson stated that in late 1941 all Sunderlands have been already repainted into TSS, so the question applies only to the 1939-40 period.

Cheers

Michael

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Both photos, are presumed to be during the Greek campaign, so later.  One guide might be the date of production of these aircraft, as only those existing prewar would have the TLS.    The Bowyer book for PSL does include drawings of a Sunderland in the B scheme, as shown in the photographs, which shows the light areas in the photos as EDSG.

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Thank you very much for so vigorous discussion answering this simple question. I appreciate very much all posts, I 've learnt a lot from what was said.

I think I will do the NM.V in EDSG/DSG with black undersides...

Best regards

J-W

 

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As always, there's also only so much that can be confirmed from studying b&w photos and thinking about colours, and a healthy warning is required.  But often there is much that can be inferred which will provide a "most probable" solution when linked to what is said in documentation.

Edited by Graham Boak
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