pierre Giustiniani Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Fellow Modellers, I have few questions concerning this scheme: Does any pictures exist of her ? Is the undercarriage red or brown (dark earth) ? Thank you in advance regards Pierre Edited April 1, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCrisps Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Scouring Google images did turn up this site, which has an image of almost the same scheme (although the camo pattern appears slightly different), but as a museum example, I don't know how accurate it is. Edited March 31, 2020 by ChocolateCrisps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Pierre, See the link to photos of K4235 on display at the Fantasy of Flight Museum in Florida. Do not know if the scheme is original, or even if the aircraft is actually K4235 or just painted to represent it. If the scheme is accurate, then maybe the color diagram might be partially correct, but the gear struts are dark earth/dark green and the yellow prototype paint has a much lower demarcation than shown on the painting guide. https://www.fantasyofflight.com/collection/aircraft/currently-not-showing-in-museum/golden-age/1934-cierva-c-30-a-autogiro/ Here is what I think is a period photo of the original K4235- hard to tell in the b&w photo, but it doesn't appear to have yellow undersurfaces, if the tone of the yellow roundel ring compared to the undersurface paint is any indication. https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/Stock-Images/Rights-Managed/MEV-11952246 If you do a search for 'Cierva Rota K4235' you can scroll through what comes up and look for period photos of K4235 and a few certainly appear to confirm yellow undersides, but for some reason I could not post links to them. The ones I think will be most useful are the ones I saw on Flickr. Hope this helps until an expert comes along. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Thank you for the answers Uhhhh....seems difficult. Searching HM580 (scheme of MiniArt profile on the picture provided by Chocolatecrips) with google leads to an autogyro with a scheme totally different No pictures of K4235 with that scheme.... K4235 had probably many lives with different scheme according to the period.... found this picture Cheers Pierre Edited March 31, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeronut Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 There is a good period photograph of an RAF C30a in that scheme in the book 'Les autogiros La Cierva' ISBN 2-915205-04-3. Although black and white the photo appears to confirm the demarcation line and Dark Earth undercarriage as per HM580. However, the photo shows a complicated arrangement of masts and antenna wires missing from the kit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetasker Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Hello mate Think you are going to struggle with this one. I’ve been trying to find evidence to support Mini Arts ‘orange legs’ on this aircraft since the kit came out but unfortunately I’ve drawn a blank. Mini Arts general scheme and demarcation between yellow and upper camo colours does seem to be based upon the well known black and white shot of the unidentified radar calibration aircraft Aeronut mentions but I don’t know if K4235 ever wore the scheme. The aircraft was almost certainly delivered to the RAF in an overall silver dope scheme and their is photographic evidence of it wearing two tone camo coded KXB. Chris Bowleys’ scale plans in an old Aviation News features AP507 coded KXP. He suggests medium sea grey undersides. Sorry non of that really answers your original question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Their scheme looks questionable at best. it may be, as noted, based on this one. You are never safe copying a profile - build from a photo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) I guess it is up to Pierre whether he wants to do K4235 as it most likely was painted in the period photos available, or of he wants to do a Rota in the color scheme illustrated in the Mini Art guide. I did discover this document from the RAF Museum that describes the ten Rotas, K4230-4232, built under license by Avro, as well as the two, K4296 and K4775 used for trials. While nothing in the article helps Pierre with how K4235 was painted, seeing the assigned units and the usage might suggest possible color schemes applied, with K4232 being the Rota displayed at the RAF Museum. Sorry I can't be of more help. Any way he chooses to paint his kit, it's going to be a handsome and distinctive model. Mike https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/79-A-1785-Avro-Rota-K4232.pdf Edited March 31, 2020 by 72modeler added text 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) Thank you Gentlemen for yours answers, links, builds, pictures. These are very helpful !! Good new; the scheme is not fictional and does exist as Autogyro of 5MMU. As per see with pictures: undercarriage seems to be yellow (maybe dark earth) K4235 is maybe not the good immatriculation for a C.30a of 5MMU (that's not really a problem as it can be changed easily) She does not seem to wear square tricolor markings on rudder and stabs. She wears at least 3 tripods masts (stabs, starboard leg) and a support mast on rudder. Antenna's wiring is not clear to me as i'm pretty sure that the tripod mast on starboard leg is connected. I have sent an email to MiniArt, asking if they have a picture of her. Best regards Pierre Edit Just have a close look to this picture on J. Fernandez book with magnifying glasses. On the top of the starboard tripod is an insulator leading to the starboard stab tripod. Edited April 1, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 hours ago, pierre Giustiniani said: Antenna's wiring is not clear to me Pierre - read the whole build article and references and it should be clear. It took a lot of effort to work it all out! This also will help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetasker Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Ed Russell said: Pierre - read the whole build article and references and it should be clear. It took a lot of effort to work it all out! This also will help Ed Do you kind me asking - are the yellow legs on your build an educated guess from B&W pictures? Cheers Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Input from several people educating my guess. I think the light catching them at that angle makes them seem a different shade to the fuselage. Comparing them to the centre of the roundel makes red the last colour I would have chosen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) Hello Ed I have read it and found it very interesting. I disagree only on that you call the C tripod with "small egg shaped on it". I have J. Fernandez book and took a picture zooming on the area. IMHO seems to be insulator pointing to the stab. Cheers Pierre PS: seems also to be an inverse V tiny wire between the arm of the soldier and the "C" tripod Edited April 1, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, pierre Giustiniani said: have J. Fernandez book and took a picture zooming on the area. IMHO seems to be insulator pointing to the stab. Yes, I only managed to get that book after I finished the model. I recommend it for real autogiro enthusiasts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetasker Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Definitely two of the best gyro reference books out there .... The first is French/English text, the Leo book is French only but a gold mine of photographic reference. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 This from Jun in Tokyo's outstanding photo website. I thought the photos would be very useful for detailing your Rota! K4232 at the RAF Museum. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 6, 2020 Author Share Posted April 6, 2020 (edited) Thank you guys I received the answer of MiniArt which is not really helpful as they said "our Research and Development Department used information from books and documents related to mentioned subject and unfortunately we do (not?) have pictures to share." The question concerning undercarriage legs is still the same (yellow or dark earth). The picture of the HM580 is not reliable as she was repainted (and repainted again after this picture). Another question appears: no immatriculation on her. The cockade is only visible on the side of the fuselage. Was the immatriculation (which one ?) erased on the picture by censors or not present at all ? Best regards Pierre Edited April 6, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetasker Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 Hi Pierre When you say ‘immatriculation’ are you referring to the serial. If so I don’t think it’s been removed, it’s just hidden by the airman’s tunic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 6, 2020 Author Share Posted April 6, 2020 Hello Pete Sorry, yes i was talking about serial. Not sure that the airman’s tunic covering the serial as it’s positioned very close to the cockade. HM580, as she served with 529 squadron, seems to be a potential one referring to the link of chocolatecrisps: « Twelve C.30As built by Avro for the Royal Air Force (RAF) entered service as the Avro 671 Rota Mk 1 (Serials K4230 to K4239 and K4296 & K4775). The twelve were delivered between 1934 and 1935. They equipped the School of Army Co-operation at RAF Old Sarum near Salisbury. Many of the surviving civil aircraft were also taken into RAF service between 1939 and 1940. In 1940 they equipped 1448 Flt. at RAF Duxford. Later they equipped 529 Sqn. at RAF Halton on radar calibration work, disbanded in October 1945, the twelve survivors were sold on to civilian owners. Most of these did not last long, although two were used for pilot rotary wing experience by Fairey in their Fairey Gyrodyne helicopter program. Rota Towels kept one ex-RAF Rota airworthy G-AHTZ until an accident in 1958. G-ACUU, the Imperial War Museum's C.30A exhibit at Duxford had one of the longest active lives. It joined Air Service Training Ltd in 1934, was impressed (as Rota HM580) in 1942, serving with 529 Squadron and returning to civil use by G.S. Baker based at Birmingham's Elmdon airport with its original registration plus the nickname Billy Boy and was not withdrawn from use until 1960. » 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) Hi Gents The more i look the picture the more i feel perplex. Is it possible, that on port side the rigging is double ? Following on picture the upper wire on port side, it seems going on the top of a unidentified piece. I tried to zoom it to explain it. In green: wires visible on the picture, in blue hypothetical one. I really don't know what is this piece. Does it belongs to the autogiro ? Is simply to separate wires or for reflecting radar ? Regards Pierre Edited April 10, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 That is probably exactly what it is, as required by the role of calibrating the radars. The difference between high and low demarcation of the camouflage is just a matter of time. It changed from a high demarcation to a low one partway through 1940. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 My interpretation was that the object is not part of the autogyro - it is something in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ed Russell said: My interpretation was that the object is not part of the autogyro - it is something in the background. Hello Ed That's what i believed at a first glance. But with a magnifier on book's picture it appears clearly that the wires visibles (red) are not running directly between the mast of the rudder and the port stab (if so, should be as the green line i have added on the picture) Observing carefully the picture of the book, i may opting for this configuration. The piece on port side is maybe a radar deflector. On the rudder mast it seems to be an insulator almost to the middle of the superior part. The piece on the port side could be also something to separate two doubles wires.... Very complicated..... Edited April 10, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Giustiniani Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) i found in Mary Evans pictures site the picture (quoted as n° 10842259) which is much more clear than in the book. It appears that the rigging of the antenna seems correct. A zoom to the port side reveals a piece looking like this: That's i will do to my model. Regards Pierre Edited April 10, 2020 by pierre Giustiniani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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