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17 hours ago, RobL said:

 

 

Rubbish!  On day 1 of the panic buying they could have shut down the stores affected, if not all stores, even just for a few hours or a day, and put in the measures we're seeing now.  They didn't, they let it run on for days, by all accounts they're still letting the online delivery system get clogged up by those with least need for an online delivery, despite supposedly having been given a list of vulnerable people to prioritise.

 

And sure it may be hindsight, but it doesn't take a genius to say "what do we do if"...

 

Please do not sit there and absolve the supermarkets of any responsibility in this situation - they helped create the problems many are now experiencing, especially for those outside of the major cities and in rural areas.

 

 

 

 

I'm not absolving the supermarkets at all, I was purely stating the fact they don't have the capacity to keep that level of sales up and keep the shelves stocked, you're the one who said supermarkets "simply not stepping up" and this is how I interpreted it, I only work for them not make decisions so there's no reason to reply to my comment in this manner

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1 hour ago, Mr T said:

True enough, what people forget is that rights have a flip side called responsibilities and that is what is most forgotten.

Spot on. Was just going to post something similar.

 

John.

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I believe that the retail industry has raised its game and responded well to the crisis.

 

I worked in the food retail industry when "just in time" distribution was taking off. Exciting times but there was some disquiet as to what would happen, with no buffer, if there was a serious issue at either the supply or demand end. I suppose that it could be argued that it took thirty five years for a problem to emerge, but in the end an economic model that favours an industry doesn't really do the country any favours in the long term.

 

However, this is history and not critical of the people currently working in the industry and as far as I can see, doing a sound job.

John.

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6 minutes ago, johnd said:

I worked in the retail industry when "just in time" distribution was taking off. Exciting times but there was some disquiet as to what would happen, with no buffer, if there was a serious issue at either the supply or demand end. I suppose that it could be argued that it took thirty five years for a problem to emerge, but in the end an economic model that favours an industry doesn't really do the country any favours in the long term.

 

John.

The same can be said for globalisation.  Shipping all our manufacturing off to India and China leads to lower prices in the shops and bigger profits for the shareholders, but falls apart in time of crisis.

 

My company used to have a rule that every one of our medicines was registered to be manufactured in two different countries to maintain two supply chains for exactly this kind of force majeure situation.  That stopped about 5 years ago, as maintaining production lines in China and Europe was too damaging to profits.  My job goes to China in September..... 

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10 hours ago, iang said:

The data on death rates by sex in China are from WHO, but I'm sure that the Chinese state is the original source.

Remember, data from china is not to be trusted. I'm reading a report that puts the deaths in china as being over 30k.

I work with 2 people who have returned from there (prior to lockdown). 

Remember that china lobbied hard for Taiwan to not be admitted into the WHO. The best performing countries that have got a grip on their outbreaks, are Singapore, Taiwan & Japan...

6 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Generally speaking, this seems to have caught the world by surprise...

I'd suggest it hasnt, just that those who should have been doing something to be prepared for such an event, didn't. Experts had modelled a scenario such as this, well in advance.

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On 31/03/2020 at 13:18, johnd said:

Except that it isn't hindsight. Imperial College undertook an excercise in 2016 (Operation Cygnus) that showed that an epidemic would overwhelm the NHS and submitted the report to ministers. They did nothing.

 

John.

Which epidemic? How do you plan for something you don't know exists? How come Governments, since the inception of the NHS, haven't stockpiled respirators and PPE? It's not just the current lot.

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I'm a bit worried that the UK is the next Italy/Spain. Maybe not the utter disaster that is the USA. 

 

I could say a lot more but won't . . 

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23 minutes ago, Ratch said:

Which epidemic? How do you plan for something you don't know exists? How come Governments, since the inception of the NHS, haven't stockpiled respirators and PPE? It's not just the current lot.

it was, if you like, to put it in terms  mot of us on BM will recognise, a war game.

 

War games are planning for wars that aren't being fought yet, so op Cygnus was planning for an epidemic that might occur.

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9 hours ago, Ratch said:

Which epidemic? How do you plan for something you don't know exists? How come Governments, since the inception of the NHS, haven't stockpiled respirators and PPE? It's not just the current lot.

Modelled on SARS-CoV-1. In other words, a new virus that had jumped species and could run rampant without any immunity getting in the way. Epedimiologists have been predicting that we were due a novel outbreak for, probably, the last decade or so. The "current lot" were warned.

 

John.

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6 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Generally speaking, this seems to have caught the world by surprise in how fast and widespread it has become. If nothing else, this will serve as a blueprint for future pandemics, as there will be precedents to look at. I'm sure there will be a mammoth public enquiry here (and no doubt elsewhere) as to the what, how, why and when of all this, so that next time, we can act faster.

That is definitely the view that will prevail and hopefully lessons will be learned in the clean up but . . . . .

 

It is over fifty years since I left school after an adequate education and among the few lessons taught that have remained with me since back then were that future fast moving global pandemics were as certain as the 'Big One' which will rearrange the geography of California.    Both were seen as unavoidably certain and in the case of disease would be hastened by the what was considered our (1960s) increasingly interconnected world.     A very belated degree course in Human Geography about ten years ago reinforced this and more.

 

The lessons were there but the longer it goes without happening or the more often we in the developed world dodge the bullet such as with SARS, MERS, Bird Flu or Swine Flu thn the more certain that those with responsibility by necessity become reconciled to either it happening elsewhere, or it will not be that bad or someone will come up with a cure in the nick of time and it lets them use limited financial resources elsewhere in the meantime.      Applying the 'Just In Time' principle to medical equipment procurement has not really worked but warehousing vast amounts which will likely go out of code(perhaps several times) before the next pandemic could be a bit like spending large amounts of cash on snowploughs for our increasingly rare bad winters which might rust before they are needed again.

 

It will be interesting to see if lessons are learned before the inevitable next one or if it will just be back to business as usual and a longer than usual New Years Honours List with a few token emergency workers added at the lower end.    

Just now, Des said:

That is definitely the view that will prevail and hopefully lessons will be learned in the clean up but . . . . .

 

It is over fifty years since I left school after a fairly adequate education and among the few lessons taught that have remained with me since back then were that future fast moving global pandemics were as certain as the 'Big One' which will rearrange the geography of California.    Both were seen as unavoidably certain and in the case of disease would be hastened by the what was considered our (1960s) increasingly interconnected world.     A very belated degree course in Human Geography about ten years ago reinforced this and more.

 

The lessons were there but the longer it goes without happening or the more often we in the developed world dodge the bullet such as with SARS, MERS, Bird Flu or Swine Flu thn the more certain that those with responsibility by necessity become reconciled to either it happening elsewhere, or it will not be that bad or someone will come up with a cure in the nick of time and it lets them use limited financial resources elsewhere in the meantime.      Applying the 'Just In Time' principle to medical equipment procurement has not really worked but warehousing vast amounts which will likely go out of code(perhaps several times) before the next pandemic could be a bit like spending large amounts of cash on snowploughs for our increasingly rare bad winters which might rust before they are needed again.

 

It will be interesting to see if lessons are learned before the inevitable next one or if it will just be back to business as usual and a longer than usual New Years Honours List with a few token emergency workers added at the lower end.    

 

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One of our neighbours today hosted their number one son in their house, who doesn't live with them.  Isn't it nice to see people taking this seriously? :mental:

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10 minutes ago, Mike said:

Isn't it nice to see people taking this seriously?

Like the driving instructor I saw today giving a young lady a lesson. Must've been difficult to keep 2m distance.

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5 minutes ago, Ratch said:

Like the driving instructor I saw today giving a young lady a lesson. Must've been difficult to keep 2m distance.

Did he have dual controls in the boot? :hmmm:

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My son was out for a walk this evening and saw eight lads playing football and drinking just as the police appeared and dispersed them. For some quite clearly the message is not getting through to the hard of thinking. 

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5 minutes ago, Mr T said:

My son was out for a walk this evening and saw eight lads playing football and drinking just as the police appeared and dispersed them. For some quite clearly the message is not getting through to the hard of thinking. 

It's frightenly common, unfortunately.  Sadly, it won't be those people that get hit the worst, it'll be the old and infirm.  That's the inequity of it all, and anyone still hoping that karma is a real thing is delusional :drunk:

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2 hours ago, hairystick said:

Remember, data from china is not to be trusted. I'm reading a report that puts the deaths in china as being over 30k.

I read a report that says the wuhan area has 84 crematoriums running 24/7. Witnesses are saying they're handing out up to 5000 urns a day. Families are being given 3000 yuan to stay quiet on the subject to western media. Sadly if that is true someone is covering up something. Im not the best at math but if the math figures out as correct, we’re all in for some serious sadness and hurt. 

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If that is true why does satellite imagery not show a great increase in air pollution over the area? Air pollution dropped to minimal amounts in January thru to end of March with very little increase lately

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I can't deny that it's hard to trust Chinese reports that they have got it under control as they are not known for being terribly forthcoming on such matters. I see that it was being reported today that the first medico to report on the contagion has now 'disappeared', probably for 're-education'. Of course, if it isn't actually under control in China other governments around the world would not want to reveal it as it would likely be detrimental to the morale of populations globally. 

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Didn't say it was true just a report coming out of china i passed on. To be honest though I'm not sure how much air pollution a crematorium would produce. Isn't the point is to collect the ash and not let it vent out to the environment. 

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2 hours ago, Beardie said:

I can't deny that it's hard to trust Chinese reports that they have got it under control as they are not known for being terribly forthcoming on such matters. I see that it was being reported today that the first medico to report on the contagion has now 'disappeared', probably for 're-education'. Of course, if it isn't actually under control in China other governments around the world would not want to reveal it as it would likely be detrimental to the morale of populations globally. 

 

I thought it was stated that the guy who blew the whistle in China has ceased to be?  Or is that a different guy?

 

  

4 hours ago, Mike said:

It's frightenly common, unfortunately.  Sadly, it won't be those people that get hit the worst, it'll be the old and infirm.  That's the inequity of it all, and anyone still hoping that karma is a real thing is delusional :drunk:

It will be all of us that are doing as we are being instructed that will be affected, because the longer people don't adhere to the advice, the longer the govt. will keep us all under lockdown and the longer the economy will continue to tank.

 

 

14 hours ago, Des said:

Is it any surprise that a generally worried even frightened population does not always comply when they are never quite sure if what they are being told is accurate and actually going to happen?

 

A lot of it doesn't appear to be worry or fright, a lot of it seems to be arrogant selfishness from those who are generally "I'll do what I want, I'm all right, Jack" under normal circumstances.  Those are some of the same people who are now crying out for government financial aid...

 

There's a guy on "my" local rag's website comments section, who today, posted a massive rant about how he's being bullied by Tesco staff, because they're asking him to line up properly, asking him to put back food and leave stuff for others, authoritarianism gone mad etc. etc.  Could be trolling, but there's an awful lot of people complaining like that...

Edited by RobL
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The Doctor died but I was talking about a 'citizen journalist' who has 'disappeared'. Having a little look around the internet it would appear that there are actually at least two Chinese journalists who have 'mysteriously disappeared'.

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1 hour ago, RobL said:

I thought it was stated that the guy who blew the whistle in China has ceased to be?  Or is that a different guy?

 

Different the first doctor was a male, the first to identify the virus actually. The latest to disappear was a woman who refused to stay silent. She hasn't been seen in days, and it is assumed a lot of things could have happened to her. Saying anything else will get too political Its best left unsaid. 

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On 3/23/2020 at 10:31 PM, davecov said:

Especially for those people with more than five models on their Shelf of Doom!

 

Dave

Do you offer a flogging of those modelers in whom

more than five models on their Shelf of Doom???

🤤

Gentlemen's, it looks like a site

"bdsmmodeller.com" is born before our eyes!!!

😁😁😁

Should  now call @davecov "Lord Dave"?

😁

On 3/23/2020 at 10:40 PM, Beardie said:

 Personally I would rather they were named and their photographs placed on their beloved social media so the world can see them and know them for what they are.

Two Cannon/Nikon this Gentlemen!!!

😉😁

On 3/28/2020 at 11:06 PM, Paul J said:

I may have missed it on this thread but what about Russia, African states and South America ... I haven't heard whats happening or the status in those places??

"Russia, African states and South America"  thanks for not "African states , South America...and this one, what is it called(?)  as I forgot ... Russia... I remembered! "😁

 

In fact, technical Russian Federation in self-isolation, but theoretically border open with us, the problem is that we closed the border to enter the Russian Federation.It is difficult to explain the reasons for this decision, especially considering that the first official patient came to us from Moscow, across the border with the Russian Federation.And she crossed the border on March 19.  and she turned to the telephone hotline 24.03, that is, if the official version is correct, then she picked up the virus no later than 18.03.  in Moscow or on the way to the border.

But officially, a long weekend is announced in the Russian Federation from this Monday, that is, from 30.03.

Therefore, it is not surprising that the number of cases is growing, and quarantine measures are being tightened.

 

On 3/31/2020 at 1:29 PM, Bullbasket said:

With all the talk here about why didn't they do this and why didn't they do that. The UK isn't unique. Most countries were caught on the hop. Can you just imagine the scene if six months ago, somebody had found that the government was stockpiling test kits, PPE etc. Someone would have written a headline asking why is the government wasting all this money on items for something that may never happen. It's always easy to be wise after the incident. Hind sight is a wonderful thing.

 

John.

If it should be "right", the country should have a civil defense system as well as a system of mobilization warehouses where things should be stored in case of war, natural disasters or epidemics. These stocks should be updated periodically. Yes, it's a Soviet civil defense system, most post-Soviet country destroys this system, in the Russian Federation they also wanted to destroy it, but for a number of reasons they didn’t do it, but they have in stock 

old ventilators, maybe they are not as effective as new ones, but they are, as and old school gauze masks e.t.c.

 

In general, I am very amazed at how smart and insightful people were in the 50-60s who created this system.

 

A simple example.  

I already wrote that I had to visit the infectious diseases department of the local children's hospital.

 

I am still impressed with how cleverly designed it is.

 

Imagine a one-story building located like the Russian letter "Г" when viewed from above. Inside the building, the corridor follows the entire length repeating the contour of the building, separate wards for patients enclosed by glass blocks adjoin the corridor perpendicularly through the vestibules. But at the same time, each chamber has an individual exit from the building to the concrete perimeter-foundation around the building. With such a system, the chances of infecting other patients are minimal. 

 

Now compare this to what they show on TV when the hospital is inside the stadiums. Of course, this is an urgent medical need to equip hospitals in stadiums, but something tells me that now as infectious hospitals no longer do.

 

On 3/31/2020 at 10:15 PM, Julien said:

All this while humans are confined due to them eating bats.

 

Maybe the planet is trying to tell us something?

I know what the planet wants to say!  She wants to say the same thing as my parents told me in childhood: "Do not put any muck in your mouth!"

We also have a population of bats in the city, but it never occurred to anyone to catch and eat them!

We have somehow adopted European cuisine, don't remember European recipes how to cook bats! 😁

4 hours ago, Beardie said:

I can't deny that it's hard to trust Chinese reports that they have got it under control as they are not known for being terribly forthcoming on such matters. I see that it was being reported today that the first medico to report on the contagion has now 'disappeared', probably for 're-education'. Of course, if it isn't actually under control in China other governments around the world would not want to reveal it as it would likely be detrimental to the morale of populations globally. 

But if this information is not fake,

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press?

then what do you want from China?

 

Of course, now there will be a lot of untrue information from everywhere and the biggest problem is that this false information cannot be identified as false in any way.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

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8 hours ago, Mr T said:

My son was out for a walk this evening and saw eight lads playing football and drinking just as the police appeared and dispersed them. For some quite clearly the message is not getting through to the hard of thinking. 

 

8 hours ago, Mike said:

It's frightenly common, unfortunately.  Sadly, it won't be those people that get hit the worst, it'll be the old and infirm.  That's the inequity of it all, and anyone still hoping that karma is a real thing is delusional :drunk:

We have a daily PMs briefing on the telly. She made the comment today that in New Zealand the biggest proportion of infected people belong to the 20-29 years age group & even though they are a group unlikely to suffer serious consequences, they provide a vector for other groups to become infected, especially those in the vulnerable categories. This in response to news items reflecting the comments above.

Steve.

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