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Just catching up on the last couple of pages, and I would also like to agree with Mr T’s comments about rights and responsibilities. I’ve been saying for some time that a lot of people seem to ‘ know their rights ‘ but don’t want to accept the responsibilities that come with them.

I also spoke frequently with my mother ( she became a munitions worker for the duration and then a nurse ) about events during WW II and she said that in the beginning, some people resented the restrictions that were put in place but pretty soon came to realise that they were necessary.

Stay well everyone.

 

John

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The issue of the validity of Chinese infection/death data has become politicised because the way in which the Chinese state brought the outbreak under control, reflects poorly on the sometimes shambolic efforts of other governments to tackle the virus. As a consequence, there are briefings that the Chinese infection/death data are intentionally incomplete. Evidence cited for this claim include: accounts of crematoria still working full time in Wuhan, similar stories of the delivery of thousands of urns and repeated changes to the definition of Covid-19 infection used in China. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says

 

However, whilst there is clear evidence that the Chinese state attempted to cover up the new virus initially, and it maybe that patient zero significantly predates December 10, 2019, the official infection/death rate data are currently accepted by WHO and most scientists modelling the pandemic

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-Exiting-Social-Distancing-24-03-2020.pdf    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html.

Edited by iang
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10 hours ago, Mr T said:

My son was out for a walk this evening and saw eight lads playing football and drinking just as the police appeared and dispersed them. For some quite clearly the message is not getting through to the hard of thinking. 

Not being totally up to speed with events in the UK, but I have to ask why it is, when the police find idiots playing football when they know that they shouldn't be, why don't they hit them in the pocket. Being made to disperse just means they'll probably do it again. Over here, if we are stopped by the gendarmes and have no good reason to be out, then we will be fined. Taking a relaxed approach to those with a cavalier attitude to the regulations is never going to work.

 

John.

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I think each country will have to take into account "national characteristics" - different cultures respond differently. The fact is, the undersized UK police force is not going to be capable of blanket enforcement of the rules and will rely on public goodwill. If they get too heavy handed, the likelihood is the public will rebel on mass, and simply ignore the authorities. Things could get nasty.  On the whole, if the British are told what the rules are, they will follow them. My experiences in France and Italy indicate a different attitude - rules are for "guidance" and will be ignored unless enforced.

 

One example that struck me was the banning of smoking in pubs .... here people grumbled but complied, whereas in France I found (outside Paris) this law openly ignored ... and even in Paris there were a couple of places where people could smoke if they stayed away from the windows!

 

But the big test is yet to come ... a beautiful spring weekend forecast. Will we behave?

 

Cheers

Colin

 

 

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A number of cases are being reported where people are being fined, in one case  I read quite a hefty fine, plus costs and victim surcharge on top. A pub in Nottinghamshire has also lost its licence and had all its stock confiscated after the manager, without the owners consent, decided to gave a lock in with a few of his mates. He is also likely to face a hefty fine and hitting people in the pocket makes sense as punishment for stupidity, reserving confinement for the scrotes who directly put people or abuse emergency workers etc. It also sends the right sort of message, if it is disseminated properly. Keeping out of the way of someone who might make you ill, seems to be a bit obvious to me, but then again l have seen enough to see what happens when it all goes wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Bullbasket said:

Not being totally up to speed with events in the UK, but I have to ask why it is, when the police find idiots playing football when they know that they shouldn't be, why don't they hit them in the pocket. Being made to disperse just means they'll probably do it again. Over here, if we are stopped by the gendarmes and have no good reason to be out, then we will be fined. Taking a relaxed approach to those with a cavalier attitude to the regulations is never going to work.

 

John.

I think the reasons the police didn't fine the kids playing football were:

 

(1) There are no powers under the new regulations to fine people under 18.

 

(2) The British police prefer to use education and encouragement to change behaviour in matters like this. They believe it works better and doesn't turn the public against them.

 

Edited by 3DStewart
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5 hours ago, stevehnz said:

We have a daily PMs briefing on the telly. She made the comment today that in New Zealand the biggest proportion of infected people belong to the 20-29 years age group & even though they are a group unlikely to suffer serious consequences, they provide a vector for other groups to become infected, especially those in the vulnerable categories. This in response to news items reflecting the comments above.

Steve.

There's a great deal of selfish behaviour going on in many aspects of this, from not observing distancing regs to clearing the shelves of food and stuff everyone else, to downright evil behaviour of coughing, spitting and breathinhg on people.  I can't quite believe how hard it is for people to grasp the severity of the situation, and ignore the fact that healthy people are dying all the time, not just those with underlying conditions. :shrug: There's no use knocking if there's no-one home though :mental:

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In case anyone is interested here is a copy paste from an email sent to me by my Mother.

 

Subject:FW: Important info from Johns Hopkins

Date:2020-03-31 20:03

From: 

To:>

 

 

Hope this come through okay.

 


Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 2:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: Important info from Johns Hopkins

 

 

 

 

This is a good explanation of what Covid 19 is and is not and how to deal with it.   Never saw this in other write ups . 

 

The following is from Irene Ken, physician, whose daughter is an Asst. Prof in infectious diseases at Johns Hopkins University.

 

 * The virus is not a living organism, but a protein molecule (DNA) covered by a protective layer of lipid (fat), which, when absorbed by the cells of the ocular, nasal or buccal mucosa, changes their genetic code (mutation) and converts them into aggressor and multiplier cells.

 * Since the virus is not a living organism but a protein molecule, it is not killed, but decays on its own.  The disintegration time depends on the temperature, humidity and type of material where it lies.

 * The virus is very fragile;  the only thing that protects it is a thin outer layer of fat.  That is why any soap or detergent is the best remedy, because the foam cuts the fat (that is why you have to rub so much: for 20 seconds or more, to make a lot of foam). 

By dissolving the fat layer, the protein molecule disperses and breaks down on its own.

 * HEAT melts fat;  this is why it is good to use water above 77 degrees F for washing hands, clothes and everything.  In addition, hot water makes more foam and that makes it even more useful.

 * Alcohol or any mixture with alcohol over 65% dissolves fat, especially the external lipid layer of the virus.

 * Any mix with 1 part bleach and 5 parts water directly dissolves the protein, breaks it down from the inside.

 * Oxygenated water helps long after soap, alcohol and chlorine, because peroxide dissolves the virus protein, but you have to use it pure and it hurts your skin.

 * NO BACTERICIDE OR ANTIBIOTIC SERVES.  Since the virus is not a living organism like bacteria, antibodies cannot kill what is not alive.

 * NEVER shake used or unused clothing, sheets or cloth.  While it is glued to a porous surface, it is very inert and disintegrates only:

-3 hours (fabric and porous),

-4 hours (copper and wood)

-24 hours (cardboard),

- 42 hours (metal) and

-72 hours (plastic).  

 

But if you shake it or use a feather duster, the virus molecules float in the air for up to 3 hours, and can lodge in your nose.

 * The virus molecules remain very stable in external cold, or artificial environments such as air conditioning in houses and cars.  

They also need moisture to stay stable, and especially darkness.  Therefore, dehumidified, dry, warm and bright environments will degrade it faster.

 * UV LIGHT on any object that may contain it breaks down the virus protein.  For example, to disinfect and reuse a mask is perfect.  But be careful because it also breaks down collagen (which is protein) in the skin.

 * The virus CANNOT go through healthy skin.

 * Vinegar is NOT useful because it does not break down the protective layer of fat.

 * NO SPIRITS, NOR VODKA, work.  The strongest vodka is 40% alcohol, and you need 65%.

 * LISTERINE SERVES as it is 65% alcohol.

 * The more confined the space, the more concentration of the virus there can be.  The more open or naturally ventilated, the less.

 * You have to wash your hands before and after touching mucosa, food, locks, knobs, switches, remote control, cell phone, watches, computers, desks, TV, etc.  And when using the bathroom.

 * You have to HUMIDIFY HANDS DRY from so much washing them, because the molecules can hide in the micro cracks.  The thicker the moisturizer, the better.  

* Also keep your NAILS SHORT so that the virus does not hide there.

 

 JOHNS HOPKINS HOSPITAL

 

 

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I’ve seen this on another website, it’s very helpful.

Most mornings I listen to the Radio 4 ‘ Today ‘ programme while I have breakfast, and I have come to the conclusion that the main message from the leadership is ‘ Jam tomorrow ‘. 

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Regarding the people who either don't care or think it won't happen to them, maybe in time (short as possible!!) they'll become social outcasts in the same vein of drink-drivers many years ago, this would make the police's task in this matter so much easier

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8 hours ago, stevehnz said:

We have a daily PMs briefing on the telly

@stevehnz Steve - here in Europe many people regard Jacinda Ardern as an example of a good, compassionate and able Prime Minister. Is that how she's viewed in NZ?

 

Brian

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4 hours ago, nsmekanik said:

In case anyone is interested here is a copy paste from an email sent to me by my Mother.

 

Subject:FW: Important info from Johns Hopkins

Date:2020-03-31 20:03

From: 

To:>

 

 

Hope this come through okay.

 


Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 2:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: Important info from Johns Hopkins

 

 

 

 

This is a good explanation of what Covid 19 is and is not and how to deal with it.   Never saw this in other write ups . 

 

The following is from Irene Ken, physician, whose daughter is an Asst. Prof in infectious diseases at Johns Hopkins University.

 

 * The virus is not a living organism, but a protein molecule (DNA) covered by a protective layer of lipid (fat), which, when absorbed by the cells of the ocular, nasal or buccal mucosa, changes their genetic code (mutation) and converts them into aggressor and multiplier cells.

 * Since the virus is not a living organism but a protein molecule, it is not killed, but decays on its own.  The disintegration time depends on the temperature, humidity and type of material where it lies.

 * The virus is very fragile;  the only thing that protects it is a thin outer layer of fat.  That is why any soap or detergent is the best remedy, because the foam cuts the fat (that is why you have to rub so much: for 20 seconds or more, to make a lot of foam). 

By dissolving the fat layer, the protein molecule disperses and breaks down on its own.

 * HEAT melts fat;  this is why it is good to use water above 77 degrees F for washing hands, clothes and everything.  In addition, hot water makes more foam and that makes it even more useful.

 * Alcohol or any mixture with alcohol over 65% dissolves fat, especially the external lipid layer of the virus.

 * Any mix with 1 part bleach and 5 parts water directly dissolves the protein, breaks it down from the inside.

 * Oxygenated water helps long after soap, alcohol and chlorine, because peroxide dissolves the virus protein, but you have to use it pure and it hurts your skin.

 * NO BACTERICIDE OR ANTIBIOTIC SERVES.  Since the virus is not a living organism like bacteria, antibodies cannot kill what is not alive.

 * NEVER shake used or unused clothing, sheets or cloth.  While it is glued to a porous surface, it is very inert and disintegrates only:

-3 hours (fabric and porous),

-4 hours (copper and wood)

-24 hours (cardboard),

- 42 hours (metal) and

-72 hours (plastic).  

 

But if you shake it or use a feather duster, the virus molecules float in the air for up to 3 hours, and can lodge in your nose.

 * The virus molecules remain very stable in external cold, or artificial environments such as air conditioning in houses and cars.  

They also need moisture to stay stable, and especially darkness.  Therefore, dehumidified, dry, warm and bright environments will degrade it faster.

 * UV LIGHT on any object that may contain it breaks down the virus protein.  For example, to disinfect and reuse a mask is perfect.  But be careful because it also breaks down collagen (which is protein) in the skin.

 * The virus CANNOT go through healthy skin.

 * Vinegar is NOT useful because it does not break down the protective layer of fat.

 * NO SPIRITS, NOR VODKA, work.  The strongest vodka is 40% alcohol, and you need 65%.

 * LISTERINE SERVES as it is 65% alcohol.

 * The more confined the space, the more concentration of the virus there can be.  The more open or naturally ventilated, the less.

 * You have to wash your hands before and after touching mucosa, food, locks, knobs, switches, remote control, cell phone, watches, computers, desks, TV, etc.  And when using the bathroom.

 * You have to HUMIDIFY HANDS DRY from so much washing them, because the molecules can hide in the micro cracks.  The thicker the moisturizer, the better.  

* Also keep your NAILS SHORT so that the virus does not hide there.

 

 JOHNS HOPKINS HOSPITAL

 

 

OK, Apparently the above is fake.

 

From Snopes

 

As governments fight the COVID-19 pandemic, Snopes is fighting an “infodemic” of rumors and misinformation, and you can help. Read our coronavirus fact checks. Submit any questionable rumors and “advice” you encounter. Become a Founding Member to help us hire more fact-checkers. And, please, follow the CDC or WHO for guidance on protecting your community from the disease.

In late March 2020, a letter supposedly published by Johns Hopkins University containing an “excellent summary” of advice on how to avoid catching COVID-19 was widely circulated via email and on social media:

But this content did not originate with Johns Hopkins, a spokesperson confirmed:

This is not something produced by Johns Hopkins Medicine (JHM). We have seen rumors and misinformation about COVID-19 citing our experts and circulating on social media, and we have received several inquiries from the general public about these posts. We do not know their origin, and they lack credibility.

The spokesperson also noted that people seeking verified information from Johns Hopkins University should check the university’s COVID-19 Resource Center.

We have not been able to definitively determine the origins of the list displayed above. Some iterations claim that this “excellent summary to avoid contagion” was sent out by Johns Hopkins University itself, but others involve a more convoluted attribution. For instance, some versions attribute the information to “Irene Ken,” an alleged physician, who received the information from her unnamed daughter, an assistant professor in infectious diseases at Johns Hopkins University.

We also found versions that promote different advice. For instance, the Facebook post shown above from the “Gomes Football Club” claims that Listerine mouthwash can be used to fight COVID-19 (this is false). But this bad advice is not included in other versions of this message posted to Facebook. This indicates to us that the list evolved as it circulated on social media to include a hodgepodge of unverified advice. 

Regardless of who penned the list, Johns Hopkins University told us such posts “lack credibility.” We won’t go through each point, but we did find a few items on this list to be factually inaccurate. 

For starters, this list starts with the claim that COVID-19 is a protein molecule (DNA), but coronaviruses are RNA viruses which contain no DNA.

The list also claims that Listerine contains more alcohol than Vodka. This is not true. Most Listerine products contain 27% alcohol, resulting in an approximately 54-proof product. Vodka on the other hand typically contains 40% alcohol, which results in an 80-proof product. Neither of these items will effectively sanitize your hands. Soap should be your first choice, but the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) writes that if soap and water are not available, an alcohol-based sanitizer containing at least 60% alcohol (120 proof) can be used. Then wash with soap and water as soon as you can.

This list also states COVID-19 needs “moisture to stay stable, and especially darkness. Therefore, dehumidified, dry, warm and bright environments will degrade it faster.” But this has not been definitively proven. Although there is still a lot to learn about this new strain of coronavirus, the World Health Organization states that “the COVID-19 virus can be transmitted in ALL AREAS, including areas with hot and humid weather.”

To sum up: This viral “advice” did not originate with Johns Hopkins University and the information contained within lacks credibility. 

Please keep yourself informed about COVID-19. If you have a question about the disease or a related matter, you can contact us here. You can also read previous Snopes fact checks about the coronavirus here. The websites of the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are also full of crucial information. Readers can also reference information that has been vetted by Johns Hopkins University using the university’s COVID-19 Resource Center.

 

 

 

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Just goes to prove that it's difficult to tell fact from fiction in this screwed up world we live in.  What on earth possesses someone to go out an tell lies and mislead people at this time?  People could die.  Don't they care?  Clearly not... I despair at times, even more so when the disinformation comes from a covert government source. :mental:

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Mike, everything on the internet is potentially untrustworthy, especially if it begins with something like "my friend's son says . . . " It's all hearsay. There's a reason evidence like this isn't allowed in a court.

 

Edited by 3DStewart
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8 hours ago, bhouse said:

@stevehnz Steve - here in Europe many people regard Jacinda Ardern as an example of a good, compassionate and able Prime Minister. Is that how she's viewed in NZ?

 

Brian

Our Prime Minister is doing generally a good job in this crisis.  However, her compassion is her weakness.  We have a situation here where most if not all cases are travel linked. This was caused by the lax handling of travelers even when the threat was very clear. Yesterday they seemed to have learnt nothing from this. They are still letting thousands of travelers back into the country without quarantining them,  Australia is. She wants them to self isolate on trust. I feel this is a case of her not wanting to be mean to these people, which is a big mistake and a lot of us may loose our lives as a result. Even the police have admitted that they can't keep checking these people.

      What is the first thing most of them will do when they get home. They will need to go to the supermarket to get food, as a result innocent people will get infected.

She is a good Prime minister, but her compassion let's her down at times like these. She says she is following advice.  This may be so, but so did Trump use this excuse and look where the US is now. Yesterday she said the travelers arrangements were working. If they were working why are these travelers infecting people around them.

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9 hours ago, bhouse said:

@stevehnz Steve - here in Europe many people regard Jacinda Ardern as an example of a good, compassionate and able Prime Minister. Is that how she's viewed in NZ?

 

Brian

I believe so, the rabid right don't, so I guess that identifies where my sympathies lie. When we went into lock down, one of our more rabid right wing media commentators criticised her for for destroying the economy unnecessarily, now he is bitching that we should have been in lock down sooner. Go figure :(  I don't pretend we are getting all right but as I see it, Adern prioritises people over money, having said that, I do think she & her party have done a good job of trying to ensure we'll come out of this economically in as good shape as possible, time will tell. She does appear to care & is trying to do the best for all Kiwis, not just vested interest groups as some other parties might seem to be. I do believe she has a much better grasp on the overall situation than the Donald (Trump) does. 

 

46 minutes ago, Greg Law said:

They are still letting thousands of travelers back into the country without quarantining them,

Not quite thousands from my understanding, more in the hundreds, there simply aren't that many flights in & out just now. It does appear that poor communication between our border authorities & police has resulted in less than optimal monitoring that returnees are self isolating, but this might now be resolved. People without a self isolation plan were quarantined in repurposed airport hotels until they could make arrangments as I understand & the limited flights around the country fly them to their onward destinations as well as providing travel for essential service personnel. We're just over a week into lock down, its is still an evolving situation & I've never believed that it'll only be 4 weeks, especially when we get dumb things like a Govt Minister driving to a mountain bike track. How the hell can we expect the hoi polloi to batten down when a Minister of the crown does this sort of thing? :( 

Steve.

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Steve,

You need to read the New Zealand  Herald. I read this artical after I made my statement here. It backs up everything I said here. The headline reads. "Ardern risks losing the trust in stumble over self-isolation. It says there have been 4068 people sent home to self-isolate in just over a week. They don't even test them properly.

They are screened which would mean a temperature check and a few questions. This is total incompetence and leaves the general population at great risk. Yet she says they are doing it right............ They are not doing it right, they are doing it wrong. The numbers of infected travellers they have found in the community shows this. 

This is not about Politics. Simply about the way we are being protected here. The lock down was a great move on the Governments part. Then they went and left the back door open.

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Steve,

            Unfortunately it is in the printed Herald only. I pay careful attention to what is happening here because I'm at great risk if I get the virus having a general breathing problem caused by spending too much time in China and some very bad Flues over the last few years. One of them put me in hospital. 

She is doing a very good job other than this one serious issue. Unfortunately it is an important one and she just won't accept she is in error, at least up to when I last looked. 

Anyway that's my last comment on it. 

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16 hours ago, bhouse said:

@stevehnz Steve - here in Europe many people regard Jacinda Ardern as an example of a good, compassionate and able Prime Minister. Is that how she's viewed in NZ?

No, she is not.

 

I'll refrain from anything more, as it will get far too political...

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And it only gets sadder and more laughable people !  
 

https://youtu.be/MmNqXaGuo2k

 

Hoarder arrested in New York City... He was hoarding One Million, Yes One million N95 masks in his house ! One man ? One Million masks ! Its sad how people get. 

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9 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

And it only gets sadder and more laughable people !  
 

https://youtu.be/MmNqXaGuo2k

 

Hoarder arrested in New York City... He was hoarding One Million, Yes One million N95 masks in his house ! One man ? One Million masks ! Its sad how people get. 

That's not hoarding, it's racketeering...  bet they were all bound for eBay at greatly inflated prices...

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10 hours ago, Greg Law said:

Our Prime Minister is doing generally a good job in this crisis.  However, 

A New Zealand health minister who was supposed to be in lockdown, decided he wanted some exercise so he got in his car and drove to a mountain bike trail several kilometres from his home. 

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