De Turenne Nieuport 11 from the kit Eduard 1/48

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot, Gene! 
The Nieuport 11 is my first WW1 aircraft  build and I ignored this site. I will take a look at it, for sure!

 

ATB, Olivier 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

In order you to have a good perception of what approximately may be visible of the cockpit once finished, here are a few other pics of my first build:

 

 

 

Enlargement of the last photo on the cockpit area:

 

Below a very nice pic showing that clearly the Eduard part B5 (gun support) is much too thick, as mentioned just above (capture screen from a YouTube video). Notice that other details are very interesting on this photo such the rearview mirror etc.:

 

 

Among the elements for which I was happy and don't intend to improve, there is the De Rhône engine. Here, the Eduard parts, mix of polystyren and PE parts, is really good imho, even if bughunter used an aftermarket part (Small Stuff) that was, anyway, unavailable at 1/48 when I have checked a few days ago. Here is the photo of my engine taken during the first build:

 

Notice that this engine will be just very partially visible on the finished model, as you can see on other pics.

And of course, if some of you want me to detail how I painted and built this engine, I will when I am at this step...

 

ATB, Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Another focus: the engine hood (part A 14 Eduard), that needs to be seriously thinned. And there is a metal plate (screwed) on the front part of the fuselage bottom:

 

 

We may notice too that this hood is not perfectly regular. I will try to represent this state of surface in the same time slightly bumped and with a Gloss finish:

 

The Eduard part has been thinned a lot (take care not to do it on the edge to fit with the fuselage):

 

and I tried to represent the slightly bumped surface, while giving a very smooth state of surface (Micromesh), condition for a glossy finish:

[Totally Mad Olivier]

We saw above that I made a half round hole to represent the step. Well. But I couldn't leave totally opened this hole, as if air was coming inside the fuselage there. I have used one of the opercula included in the single use trays I use for my dental practice (but you can use another option, of course), to close this small space inside the fuselage. I will have to adapt the PE part 2 from the Profipack edition (anyway, this area is totally invisible on the finished model). Before glueing it, I have applied the Black Grey 862 Vallejo with a paintbrush inside and outside of this small scratch part:

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 21/03/2020 at 20:14, Roger Holden said:

the French did take a very few genuine colour photos in WW1 using the 'Autochrome' process which gave a fairly realistic rendering of the colours. Some of these were of Nieuport aircraft, which show that the Nieuport factory used a quite dark shade of medium blue (not like the pale grey-blue of French insignia usually depicted, which came later)

Roger, you say here that "a few genuine colour photos using the Autochrome process were taken by the French. Do you know where I could find them (at least one...)?

Indeed, at least for the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace Nieuport specimen, the Blue colour is not "a quite dark shade of medium blue, but rather a lighter blue (lighter than my first build blue, anyway), as we could see on the photos below:

 

 

 

I admit that doubts remain in my mind, and that such an Autochrome process photo would be very interesting, and so, any suggestion will be welcome to solve this question.

 

ATB, Olivier

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

This is coming along beautifully, Olivier - and such a pretty little aircraft.  
 

As a matter of interest, does anyone know whether the Special Hobby Nieuport 10 [1/48] is any good?  
 

I have a vague idea to build a model depicting Richard Bell Davies (RNAS VC for probably the first combat SAR mission in history); he was in a 2-seater Nieuport 10 converted to single seat

Edited March 25, 2020 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot, « Ex... » for your encouragements.

I have personally no idea of the Special Hobby kit you mention.

You give me the occasion to say a word about the Eduard  Nieuport 11 1/48 kit. It is really a good kit, even if, of course, it needs to be improved to get a quite faithful replica. The quality of parts is nearly equal to Tamiya kits, the decals are OK (not always the case with Eduard). I just regret that Eduard decided to stop first the production of the Profipack version, and, now, as it seems, also the WE edition. 
 

ATB, Olivier 

 

 

This part, once ready, has joined the other small parts in compartments:

 

Other important observations:

 

The period doc below shows that the answer about the struts is yes (approximately, at least):

 

This doc, showing the pilot Navarre in his Nieuport 11, shows other interesting details, in addition to its historical aspect.

 

ATB, Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

[Terry1954]

I'm pleased to have found this build Olivier. It is especially well presented and executed. I will follow with much interest as I have a 1/48 Eduard Sopwith Camel, which I one day plan to build and  convert into a Sopwith Swallow - I have a resin wing conversion for that. I feel I can learn much from builds like this, as aircraft of this era are a little out of my comfort zone!

 

Terry

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks Terry for your kind message. I hope my build will help you for your one, and will give you inspiration to begin this new project.

The Nieuport 11 (I think I ever said that) is my first WWI aircraft build (for me too, out of my comfort zone (especially the rigging)).

I had a real crush when seeing the result JMV could get with this kit in the « Guide ». It is really a beautiful aircraft, especially with this Blue/white/ red decoration of the de Turenne pilot. 
 

ATB, Olivier 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

 

 

This doc, showing the pilot Navarre in his Nieuport 11, shows other interesting details, in addition to its historical aspect.

Great hat!  Nothing like a backwards képi to protect your head in a crash...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

On 25/03/2020 at 16:01, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Great hat!  Nothing like a backwards képi to protect your head in a crash...

An important detail that I forgot to mention! 😉

More seriously, there are 2 radiator caps not represented on the Eduard kit: one on the hood, one on the front part of the fuselage. For the latter, the hole to drill will have to be done after assembling the 2 half fuselages, because it is too close from the midline (slightly shifted to the right):

 

N.B: this doc will be of great help to represent as well as possible the varnished wooden propeller...

[Brandy]

I was going to comment on that too, and modern kids think they are cool and trendy wearing their caps backwards, whereas they are actually 100 years out of date

 

This is coming on very nicely Olivier, thanks for the detailed explanations.

 

 

Ian

[Quiet Mike]

Thank you for posting such a detailed break down of this lovely little 'kite', it's one of my favourites. I've yet to make a plastic version, but your thread is making me very tempted. I did attempt the Guillows version, but I didn't have the nerve to fly it! (It's hanging over my head as I type this)

 

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=729783131&sk=media_set&set=a.10156586442763132&type=3

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks to you for watching and following, Ian.

A little update for the radiator cap:

 

P.S: Waooh, Mike, that's nice! I wish I could get such a transparency effect!!

 

ATB, Olivier

[Roger Holden]

7 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Roger, you say here that "a few genuine colour photos using the Autochrome process were taken by the French. Do you know where I could find them (at least one...)?

Indeed, at least for the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace Nieuport specimen, the Blue colour is not "a quite dark shade of medium blue, but rather a lighter blue (lighter than my first build blue, anyway), as we could see on the photos below:

 

The best place I've seen the Nieuport 11 autochrome picture is in this great book:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2002/august/new-releases/book_dorme.htm

(the painting on the cover is a good reflection of the insignia colour).

A number of the autochrome photos were also published in the WW1 modelling magazine 'Windsock International', but I don't have a list of the issues. 
 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot, Roger. We must admit that there is a big difference between the blue of this picture on the cover of the book you mention, and the one of the Musée de l'air specimen, or even the one we may see on the painting of the post # 3. To be honest, and in the lack of certainty, until I get a more convincing doc, I should probably (and carefully) lighten a bit the blue of my first version, turning it rather to the "Musée" blue (maybe a bit darker though)...

I think we will never be sure of what it was anyway, and in this case, personal choices will be to consider.

 

ATB, Olivier

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Indeed, at least for the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace Nieuport specimen, the Blue colour is not "a quite dark shade of medium blue, but rather a lighter blue (lighter than my first build blue, anyway), as we could see on the photos below:

 

There was an article in Scale Models magazine around 1980, which was about a French artist who painted aircraft in WW1, and it was mentioned that his work was good for colour as he was watched by pilots who would comment on his work.  

 

the blue of the instructions look quite blue,  the musuem example looks like it has been restored so should not be trusted for colour. 

 

And, a chance google of "WW1 French aviation artist" gets this

https://thefederalist.com/2018/11/10/artist-henri-farre-documented-birth-military-aviation-world-war/

 

Quote

Henri Farre was born in Foix, France in 1871. He is best known for his paintings of WWI aerial battles. Farre flew in the cockpits along with the pilots of the famed Lafayette Escadrille, sketching the air battles as they were taking place.

 

and this is an example

 

 

There maybe some of his work in French museums,  perhaps of use?

 

The other place to have a look is the Wingnut Wings site

 

they have a hints and tips section

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/hintsandtips

 

one of the very French aircraft WNW do is this

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3085&cat=4

 

HTH

[Troy Smith]

also @Olivier de St Raph  I'm getting warning messages from the site (maybe just a configuration problem my end)

https://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Public/Presentation/ManageCollection/artcollection.cfm?MAIN_ID=1&CAT_ID=156&GROUP_ID=226

 

but if you search "The United States Air Force Art Collection nieuport farre"  there are paintings listed in that collection.   

 

[Troy Smith]

11 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

colour photos in WW1 using the 'Autochrome' process

 

I googled

"colour photos in WW1 using the 'Autochrome' process nieuport"

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69471

more in the thread, but this is stunning

 

and up on wiki!

 

 

Quote

Colour Autochrome Lumière of a Nieuport Fighter in Aisne, France 1917

WW1 - Nieuport biplane fighter. (Haut-Rhin, France 1917) by Paul Castelnau This image has been digitally manipulated.

 

HTH

[Marklo]

Ahh the old chestnut of accurate colour. Paints varied from batch to batch and from factory to factory. Environmental conditions and application method can make colour vary as can ageing  and even the light in which the colour is viewed ( metamerism anyone?) All of Which means that while two samples can be matched ( with great difficulty I might add. I’ve had occasion to work on this on more than one point in my career) the bottom line ( especially when dealing with a more than 100 year old aircraft) is to go for pleasing/ plausible colour

 

To further prove the point try figuring out the correct colour for a British Mk IV heavy tank. ( after much research I ended up with milk chocolate brown, but this may be wrong)

e.g you can probably come up with a blue/gray that matches the museum exhibit when viewed in the museum, but is it the same as the original machine when viewed in the outdoors in France in 1916(7?) and so on.

 

Puts soapbox away.....

Edited March 25, 2020 by Marklo

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks a lot chaps for your research and comments. The autochrome photos and the painting of post #45 suggest a not so dark blue. And even if the orthochromatic is not reliable, difficult for me to imagine a more or less dark blue when I look at the photo with de Turenne (post #3). I totally agree with you, Marklo, even on much more recent color photos, you can't refer to that to determine the right color. I will go for a bit lighter blue than the mix I used for my first build, aware that I am not sure I am right on this point.

 

ATB, Olivier

 

P.S: I found very interesting stuff on Wingnut Wings, thanks for this suggestion too...

[Roger Holden]

5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thanks a lot, Roger. We must admit that there is a big difference between the blue of this picture on the cover of the book you mention, and the one of the Musée de l'air specimen, or even the one we may see on the painting of the post # 3. To be honest, and in the lack of certainty, until I get a more convincing doc, I should probably (and carefully) lighten a bit the blue of my first version, turning it rather to the "Musée" blue (maybe a bit darker though)...

I think we will never be sure of what it was anyway, and in this case, personal choices will be to consider.

 

ATB, Olivier

About 30 years ago, it was thought that all French WW1 planes used 'standard' colours for the insignia (like the British did).  They were thought to be a quite dark red and a pale, grey-blue just like on the restored Nie 11 you posted. But it is now known that was not the case and each factory used its own colours which varied significantly.  Some did use the pale grey-blue (Spad), but the Nieuport blue was much darker and stronger. I dug out my copy of the book I mentioned above and matched the 

colour to Pantone charts and it's Pantone 275C ( a fairly dark, slightly purple-blue)

https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/275-C

 

The red is a bright, vermilion red.  It can be said that the Nieuport colours were quite similar to the British colours and possibly influenced by them.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks again, Roger, for your contribution. However, despite what you explained about the orthochromatic films, it is very difficult for me to imagine that the blue of the de Turenne Nieuport 11, when this photo was done, 

 

was this one (anyway as it appears on my computer screen):

 

and the period paintings and autochrome photos showed above (post# 45, in particular) contradict too imho such a dark blue.

So, it's OK if I'm wrong, but I will go on with my idea of lightening a bit the color I used for the first build, that "is" this one:

 

(this photo was done just to give an idea, I am aware - one more time - that, following the light and many other considerations, a quite important distorsion may exist. Just see the first 2 photos posted in this post#1 of this thread, on the second, the blue seems much lighter than on the first... More, this color is of course just a basic one, and the weathering techniques will create several shades of blue...)

 

ATB, Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

 

I made another photo, using this time my Canon Powershot G11 in manual mode rather than my Iphone:

 

Well, I think this part is over, ready to install... 

 

 

ATB, Olivier

Edited March 26, 2020 by Olivier de St Raph
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