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Totally Mad Olivier

De Turenne Nieuport 11 from the kit Eduard 1/48

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Hello to all,

 

The decision to begin a new thread dedicated to this aircraft build has not been easy, for several reasons.

- First, because of this f... virus, that poison our lifes: was it decent, while many people are suffering in their flesh, to debate around such futile things?

- Then, because my last thread, Indianapolis 500 Ford Mustang 1964 1/2:

has been interrupted because it began really to turn boring, with a lot of parts that needed to be scratchbuilt (and often using 3D CAD/CAM, while I am totally dependant of competent people to model the parts). I don't despair, however, and hope I will find the courage and faith to end this very complex build...

- Then because many ideas of this Nieuport 11 build are not mine, but either Juan Manuel Villalba's ones (in the great "Guide du maquettisme aéronautique", Histoire et Collections, 2011), either bughunter alias Frank's ones (see his amazing build here:

But well, the desire is too strong, and being confined gives me more time than usually to share on my favorite hobby.

I have to precise that I have built a first version, directly inspired by Villalba, following his steps like a pupil who tries to imitate his master. In particular, he gave me hints - in the book or through our frequent e-mail dialog on how to give a transparency effect on the wings, represent the rigging, paint the rosettes and so many other details. I like very much this first version and had a lot of fun building it, but I want to go a bit farer, and improve it on many aspects, using the wide documentation that JMV could not get when he wrote the great article in the book mentioned above. 

Here are some pics of this first version:

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This new thread is dedicated to Juan Manuel Villalba, and also to all victims of this awful disease. I have a particular thought for our Italian brothers (I live not far from Italy and we love this country), while the virus causes so many suffering there, especially in Lombardy...

 

Olivier, 20/03/2020

 

P.S: I will detail in the next topic the many points I want to improve from this first version...

 

 

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Wow !! I really like the first version, I can't imagine what the next one will look like......  I am here to see...............

Jeff

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On 20/03/2020 at 16:28, Biggu said:

Wow !! I really like the first version, I can't imagine what the next one will look like......  I am here to see...............

Jeff

Thanks Jeff for this kind and encouraging comment.

In fact, a non expert will probably make no difference between both versions, but there will be definitely many improvements. Among them, let's mention:

- the rigging: in the first version, I have used, following JMV, stretched plastic for most of the cables (the ones between the 2 wings and the fuselage). But some cables are a bit wider than other ones and, more, it was sometimes difficult to get a good tension. The holes in which they should be inserted on the wings were missing, they will have to be added.

Later, when I got them, I used the Uschi standard elastic rigging (used for the rear rigging and for the ones in front of the pilot (in cross), added just 2 days ago while I had forgotten them. This Uschi product is good, quite easy to glue and allows to get a good tension. Another advantage of these elastic rigging is that, once glued, even if you touch them while you handle the model, they resist because of their elasticity, while I have had several times problems with the stretched plastic that came unstuck in the same circumstances. Though, they are (even in the standard version I used) a bit too narrow imho. Bughunter has used a kind of sewing thread that looks very good. I look forward to get the info from him about this material that gives, anyway in his hands, great results. 

- the turnbuckles were made using stretched cotton swab. This option, acceptable in the past, may be replaced today conveniently using, like bughunter, the Gaspatch great turnbuckles (several models available, I ordered the metal One-end type). More, the documents show that the intermediate turnbuckles, represented in the middle of the main ones, did not exist. It is an unnecessary complication:

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- I had used the decal with the pattern at the middle of the fuselage without trimming to avoid the clear film (I thought it was not really necessary). It was an error and it was difficult, then, to hide this clear film.

- for the next version, I want to represent the vertical ribs on the fuselage (not present on the first version) like we may see them on the box-art of the Week-end Eduard kit (we may see them also on the very nice painting below). Following JMV, I had just represented  horizontal ribs along the fuselage on top. The latter will be represented too but using a narrower mask (about 0,5 mm)

- I had not done a dry check for the B18 part (p. 5 of the instructions). When glueing it, it was a bit too wide and, by pushing too much, an accident occurred breaking the tailplane, while the build was nearly over.

- The parts B7 and B8 (p. 5 too) are too wide and must be replaced, using the docs for a better replica

- the adjustment of the struts on the wings may be improved

- the provided cushion in the PE set (option) is not thick enough and a doc shows that it was certainly not like that, even if it is very nice

- the propeller, even if it is ever not too bad, may be improved, inspired by the superb wood one bughunter made. I don't think I will scratchbuild from wood like him but I will try to get a comparable result with the kit's part.

- the docs show that the Blue color should be lighter, as this very important suggests (low contrast between the Blue and the White, sorry labels in french...):

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- in the first version, the fins were not anguled, on the top wing as on the horizontal stabilizer. It will be different on the next version, for a more living result. Bughunter made here, fe, a great job with small hinges.

 

This list is far from being exhaustive and it is, I am aware of that, probably very indigestible mentioned like that. In the next pages, by going into details of the build and by bringing much more pics, it should become more concret...

 

ATB

 

Olivier

 

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The Nieuport 11 at 1/48 did exist in 2 versions:

- the Profipack, including an unpainted set of photoetched parts, a set of Express masks that may be useful to paint the edges on the wings and horizontal stabilizer. The color of the polystyren is light Beige, a good choice to apply the linen color on it. Pity, this version is out of stock for a long time.

 

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- the Week-end edition, that begins in turn to become quite difficult to get too, because it hardly seems that Eduard has stopped its production. In this version, the PE set and the Express masks are optional, having to be bought separately (what I did for the first version). More recent, some of the photoetched parts are painted, but the set provided is reduced (sufficient however imho).

 

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So, fe, the parts 1 and 2 from the other set are missing here. It is a fact that the cockpit will be slighly visible at the end, by the small opening.

 

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The polystyren is grey, not a very good choice to apply the linen color and the many coats to come especially if you decide, like me (on JMV's suggestion, especially to make the weathering easier) not to use the decals for the rosettes.

For this new version of my build to come, I bought the 2 sets. The Profipack was bought on ebay, a bit expensive because of its rarity (42,82€ including shipping from USA), the WE version purchased on Passion 132 (17,80€, probably still available to this day).  Why 2 sets? the main reason is because, as I want to separate the fins on the top wing as on the horizontal stabilizer and give them an angle, it is easier to do that job with a fine diamond disc and this operation couldn't be done without damage otherwise. There are several other reasons in the detail of which I won't come, to avoid to make the story longer. But of course, you can just buy the WE set and, as I did previously, the Express Masks and the PE set in option. If you can decide to dispense with the Express masks, the PE set is absolutely necessary if you want to represent accurately the engine, fe, but also many other details.

 

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A word about the decal sheets, to end this topic:

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ATB

 

Olivier

 

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(sorry, labels in french while I didn't know, still 4 days ago, that I would create a thread on Brit about this new build...)

 

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I would imagine that with the shields the stripes would be the same both sides. IE bottom left to top right as viewed on the aircraft. That would mean the second set of decals, but the horn could be either way.....

Nice research though, looking forward to seeing it coming together.

 

Ian 

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I agree with you, Ian, and I suppose that is why Eduard modified its decals. I will certainly use the WE edition ones. 

Thanks for watching and for your contribution

 

Olivier

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On 20/03/2020 at 18:43, Olivier de St Raph said:

- the docs show that the Blue color should be lighter, as this very important suggests (low contrast between the Blue and the White, sorry labels in french...):

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That is not true at all, I'm afraid.  In WW1 nearly all the photos were taken using Orthochromatic film , which does not render the colours as they appear in real life.  Blues appear much lighter than they do in reality and reds or yellows appear nearly black (as you can see from the fuselage horn design).  Only in the 1930s, did Panchromatic film come into widespread use, which gives 'lifelike' renderings of the colours in grey scale. That is one of the reasons 'guessing' WW1 colours is so difficult.

 

However, the French did take a very few genuine colour photos in WW1 using the 'Autochrome' process which gave a fairly realistic rendering of the colours. Some of these were of Nieuport aircraft, which show that the Nieuport factory used a quite dark shade of medium blue (not like the pale grey-blue of French insignia usually depicted, which came later).   So, it's possible to say with a fair degree of confidence that those models of Turenne's aircraft using a quite dark shade of blue are correct.  I would also say the wheels are probably blue in the above photo.

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Thank you very much Roger for these very interesting technical infos about the kind of film used. I will take them in consideration and so will keep the same Blue than on my first version.

 

Olivier

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N.B: I know most of you, in Britmodeller, are great modelers with great skills, and I certainly don't pretend to be better than you (I remain very humble, aware that I always have a lot to learn and improve myself). So, some hints I give are specially dedicated to beginners or so, to show them that getting nice results is possible with a bit of patience and will. So sorry if I seem to "give lessons" through my topics, I am aware that many other approaches may give as good results or better.

 

ATB, Olivier

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3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

So sorry if I seem to "give lessons" through my topics,

I seriously doubt they are taken that way.  I’v already looked up Tamiya sanding sponge, which I didn’t know about.

 

Dennis

 

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Dennis,

You have understood that I love this Tamiya product (the sanding sponges). Of course, this doesn't mean that other options (files, sanding paper, blade etc.) are outdated. For each situation a solution that depends also on each one of us choice of work. But these sponges are really pleasant to use, enduring and finally not so expensive when used as I mentioned above.

 

ATB, Olivier

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Olivier, if the grey Mr Surfacer is giving you problems, you might want to try Mr Dissolved Putty?  It dries a pale cream colour

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thanks for this tip, Ex-FAA... I will try as soon  as it will become possible to order again modeling products... 

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Posted (edited)

Personally I love it when modellers describe their techniques in detail On the forums. Helps me to develop and improve my modelling skills no end.

 

I too had never heard of Tamiya sanding sponges.

Edited by Marklo

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Here are the grit available for these sponges: 180, 240, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000, and 3000. A full range, as you can see. I think you don't need to have all the grit sponges. 240, 400, 800 and 1500 should be enough in general (you can go up to 3000 for gloss finishes, before using the Alclad Micromesh).

 

Thanks for watching

 

Olivier

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2 hours ago, Marklo said:

Personally I love it when modellers describe their techniques in detail On the forums. Helps me to develop and improve my modelling skills no end.

 

I too had never heard of Tamiya sanding sponges.

I will second that Marklo................ and this is a great thread, I am learning a lot here new techniques and a GOOD history lesson, looking forward to the next installment Oliver...

Jeff

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Well, I go on preparing all the polystyren parts that will be used for the build. Removing the parts from the sprues (Xuron 2175 plier) and a good file, the molds marks with a triangular blade (gentle scratching), and finishing with the sanding sponges or, in difficult areas, sanding paper. Some more holes are to manage on the down wings, considering the docs below (on the kit Eduard, just a small mark for these holes that will receive riggings):

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And, as we are going soon to begin the cockpit job, here are the docs (pity, very few docs available imho but anyway, the cockpit, as I said above, will be just slightly visible at the end) I have (for now):

 

1) seat, belt, and lateral side: Eduard provides a nice cushion (see above on the PE painted sheet) and it is the one I used for my first build but this cushion is imho more probable (same comment for the seat belt). In the same vein, painting the sides with a wooden look (what I did on the first build too) doesn't seem to make sense, except from an aesthetic point of view. The sides were, imho, linen made.

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2) Metal firewall protecting the cockpit, reinforcements and cables:

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4) dashboard made of wood:

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5)

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In order to give you an idea of the cockpit on my first build (inspired by my master JMV who made a much better job especially on the wood painting job, that I made for the first time ), here are the pics I made (I didn't imagine then that I would show them on Brit one day):

 

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Thanks very much for this magnificent thread!!! I appreciate how much effort you are putting into the pictures and descriptions. I will definitely be saving this masterwork.

 

Gene K

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17 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

So sorry if I seem to "give lessons" through my topics, I am aware that many other approaches may give as good results or better.

Thank you for  taking the time to give detailed explanations,  it is always interesting to see how different techniques work. 

 

As for tool and methods,  as I have said on here "if the tool and techniques used, give you the result you want, they are the 'right' ones" 

 

Regarding sanding sponges, i bought a box of offcuts (but as big as the piece you show above) from a place that makes them for car body shop work from ebay,  I think for about six pounds posted. 

OK, here

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-x-Sponge-Sanding-Pads-Metal-Clay-Bronze-Clay-PMC-Silver-Clay-Fimo-Polymer/293474043382

 

Quote

PACK OF 20 Factory OFF CUTS,

 WE HAVE LARGER PACKS AVAILABLE IF REQUIRED PLEASE SEE OUR OTHER LISTINGS

OFFER IS FOR 20 x RANDOM MIXED FINE GRADES WET AND DRY SANDING FINE GRADE OFF-CUTS

NO GAURANTEE ON WHAT QUANTITIES OF EACH GRADE , BUT PACK INCLUDES  P400/320 , P600/500, P1000/800, P1200 , 

THESE ARE FINE ,SUPERFINE ,ULTRA  AND MICRO FINE GRADES 

WHEN THE  PADS ARE MADE WE HAVE VARIOUS SIZE OFF CUTS FROM THE TRIM PROCESS,  

 WHEN YOU CONSIDER ONE FULL SIZE PAD IS ABOUT 2.99 IN YOUR DIY STORE  HOPEFULLY YOU  SEE  WHAT A BARGAIN THESE ARE 

20 OFF CUTS EQUATE TO ABOUT 12 FULL SIZE PADS, WE WEIGH THEM TO ENSURE THIS, SO SOMETIMES MAY BE MORE THAN 20 OFF CUTS TO GET THE CORRECT WEIGHT 

NONE PROFIT ITEM, PRICE COVERS CARRIAGE PACKERS , EBAY AND PAYPAL FEES

 

No connection to seller,  but I was very happy with mine.   Maybe not much use for you in France,  but perhaps to @DMC and @Marklo as often products specifically for modellers are smaller quantities for more money than can be got elsewhere.

 

I first read about these foam backed sanding sheets in a post by John Adams aka @John Aero

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235016736-148-granville-brothers-aircraft-gee-bee-r-1-r-2-racer-by-dora-wing-r-2-r-1-released-new-r-1-early-boxing/&do=findComment&comment=2891165

Quote

The secret is to use fine rubber sponge backed sanding pads for the initial sanding which will contour and just expose the plastic stringers but not reduce them.  Then use the T shirt cloth and solvent. This will gently abrade, smooth and polish the YFP between the high points of the ribs or stringers. 

 

The fine /ultra fine sponge pads  (size approx 100 mm x 125 mm by  6 mm thick) I use I got from Car body finishing material suppliers and I cut them into smaller squares.

so a box of offcuts is a cheap way to get them pre-cut ;) 

the post was about dealing with overdone fabric ribbing and ways to improve it. Well worth a read as it is very handy technique.

 

Apologies for the thread drift @Olivier de St Raph  but I hope of use to others even if not to you.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Apologies for the thread drift @Olivier de St Raph  but I hope of use to others even if not to you.

No problem, Troy Smith, I want this thread to be also a space for suggestions, regarding as modeling techniques as technical considerations about the docs and the Nieuport 11.

At the moment, I am thinking a lot on how I could represent more faithfully the ribs on the wings and the effect of transparency. It is a real challenge, if you consider that we use opaque polystyren to represent a fabric of stretched linen on a metal structure. And about the structure, I found a great blueprint for which I made some capture screens. As I don't know if I am allowed to post them (copyright?), I precise that of course I will remove them from the thread immediately if it is a problem (no question to pay rights just for a 1/48 replica and while I myself share my work totally for free):

 

1) Top view fuselage and horizontal stabilizer and frontal cuts:

 

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2) Interplane struts:spacer.png

 

3) Wings top view:spacer.png

 

4) Lateral view: I learnt here what was the function of the black area on the photos (red circle). It was a step for the pilot to climb into the cockpit. So, bughunter was right representing a hole there (a question I was wondering)

 

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And, to end this topic, return to the preparation, with an important hint:

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Edited by Olivier de St Raph

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Don't forget that the wings only appeared transparent when the sun shone on them. You could always model it "on an overcast winter's day". Ie no sunshine, so no internal structure visible! 

 

Ian

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1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

Don't forget that the wings only appeared transparent when the sun shone on them. You could always model it "on an overcast winter's day". Ie no sunshine, so no internal structure visible! 

Ah! Ah! That's right, Ian, my Nieuport will take place on an overcast winter's day... However, as for my first build, I will represent the rosettes through the linen fabric, but probably with small differences, based on docs such the one below (very inspiring to restitute as well as possible the transparency effect):

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Olivier,

 

You are probably aware of the this outstanding WWI site -- ww1aircraftmodels.com , but if not, I think you would very much enjoy a visit there (but be prepared to spend a lot of time).

 

Gene K

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