De Turenne Nieuport 11 from the kit Eduard 1/48

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have to decide if I place the pattern decals (on both sides) now or after the lower wing painting and weathering.

For the first build, I chose the first option. I had to avoid to place any masking film on it along the wing job, using a portion of paper that covered it, this paper being hold in place by masking tape all around.

The 2 nd option, safer, consists in doing first the whole painting job on the wing. I will have to protect the areas around when I apply the necessary clear varnish (before the decal placement) and the final weathering job on the white portion (so, the decal will be weathered too).

I think I will choose the latter option, safer and more simple, for this 2 nd build.

 

The weathering is nearly over on my fuselage:

 

 

 

Edit a bit later: rather than using again paint to reduce a bit this weathering (especially on the white portion and on the left side), I chose to use the 1000 grit Tamiya sanding sponge, carefully. This technique gives good result, I must say, decreasing a bit the contrast between more or less weathered areas, especially on the marks done with the paintbrush, a bit too "visible" on the photos above.

 

My fuselage is ready!

 

Thanks for watching,  Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

For the subtle improvement below, I referred to the 3rd pics in the post#3 and to the 2nd one in the post#4 (box-art of WE edition Eduard):

 

 

Of course, the same is done on the left side and on the bottom...

 

This leads me to say that, as I discussed recently with JMV, the hardest in model making, is to create "disorder", while our brains are used to create order (he masters very well introducing irregularities in the weathering, while it is more difficult for me).

Here is an example: the result is imho much better, with a better 3D effect and a more pleasing to the eye result, by creating a dissymmetry between the shadows...

 

Atb,   Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

N.B: of course, this is just a dry fit assembly for the turnbuckle, it will be assembled as late as possible (very fragile)...

 

Edit a bit later:

[RichieW]

Totally worth it!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Time to focus on the wings, adding first ribs and strips...

 

 

 

 

 

Edit a bit later: I noticed that the last masking film (the 2 mm) was not strong enough and tended to get unstuck. One more time, I used the MMFA (a versatile product, definitely...) to reinforce it before going on... It was inserted with a fine spatula and applied by capillarity, under the strips.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Olivier de St Raph

[Bughunter]

Now I have to answer here too, if I was mentioned so often in your postings. That makes me happy that my Nieuport 11 has inspired you for the next, even better build!

Very careful build and paintwork, with many thoughts prior each step This will result in a great model

 

Regarding the wing struts: at the build time of my Ni 11 I had not fully understand that mechanism. Some time later I have also build a Nieuport 17 as flown in the movie "Flyboys", may be even better as the 11 model:

 

This can give you some more ideas, see the (english) build report here, especially the struts:

https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=9172.30

 

One day should should try also a rotary engine from Small Stuff, those are great kits!

 

Cheers,

Frank

 

PS: You should reduce the picture size of your huge pictures (not the number of pixels, just file size by increased compression), I have often long loading times, especially with many pics on a page on mobile devices. For that reason another forum has put a limit of 150kbyte per picture, and as you see on my reports, that quality is still good enough (I use one set of pictures).  

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks  Frank and welcome on this thread! 

Yes, as the JMV one, your Nieuport 11 has inspired me a lot, it is really impressive.

On Brit, you just showed the finished build (RFI section) but it is possible, though, to follow your build (in german, pity...) here:

https://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=56389.0

 

I just read your post, and wanted to reply first, but, definitely, I will go seeing your Ni17 build.

I will also watch the report you mentioned about the struts.

 

Sorry for the picture size, I'll try to decrease them for a better experience... Knowing that I use  my MacBook Pro, do you know how I can simply do that? If necessary, I will phone Apple. I also have Lightroom 6, but it is a long time since I used it, and if I may find a quicker way to do the job, it will be fine.

 

All the best,    Olivier

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

[Brandy]

Very patient work Olivier, and it will most certainly pay off in the end result!

 

Ian

[Totally Mad Olivier]

14 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Very patient work Olivier, and it will most certainly pay off in the end result

I hope so, Ian, I hope so... Yes, it was a delicate and patient work, but it is over, at least for the top wing. The peripheral strip was very delicate to apply, as it had to be the same width on both sides (top and bottom). here is the result:

 

 

N.B: 1) At the request of Frank, I tried to decrease the size, I hope the following experience is improved, so. 

2) You can see that, here or there, the peripheral could need a bit of MMFA too, and that in some areas, the strip may be improved, I will check all that tomorrow (every day is enough...)

Thanks for watching

 

Cheers, Olivier

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Before going on, I would need to have answers to these questions:

- was Eduard right to represent the peripheral strip on the horizontal stabilizer? it was definitely wrong about the vertical ones... The period pic below seems to confirm that Eduard was wrong on this point too. I don't know if there was a strip, but if so, it was not dark.

- was Eduard right to represent the  rosettes on the bottom of the up wing? Impossible to answer this question referring to this doc. Notice that the Nieuport 11, at the Le Bourget Musée de l'Air, has its rosettes on the top of this up wing. Notice too that Super Hobby suggests that it is on the top side for its De Turenne 1/48 Nieuport 11 kit. When looking on the Net, I found a lot of Nieuport 11 with the rosettes painted on the bottom. In the lack of certainty, I will (as I did for my first build) represent them on the bottom, with just the effect of transparency on the top...

- was Eduard right to represent the wheels in blue? (notice that I represented them linen on my first build, like JMV). Here too, impossible to know, as blue and linen are nearly the same on this orthochromatic pic.

 

I have just sent a new e-mail to Marc Chassard, to have his opinion, especially on the question of the rosettes.

Below the main period doc to our disposal and the Eduard instructions:

 

 

 

Of course, any contribution to these questions will be very welcome...

 

P.S: it is interesting to notice that the Eduard box-art, contradicting the instructions, does not represent the edge strip on the horizontal stabilizer, whilst being wrong regarding the vertical one:

 

 

Edit: about the "rosettes" question, look at this other painting: here, the rosettes are on the top part of the up wing:

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

I have to add these missing strips around the central gap. They look like a bit thicker on the top side than on the bottom one. On the latter, once the strips added, I should add someone rivets (gun support attachment)...

 

Edit a bit later: looking at other docs (like the one below), it is not sure at all that the upper strips around the gap are thicker, I will use for both upper and under surfaces 1 mm width masking tape, that should fit well.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Olivier de St Raph

[Brandy]

Hi Olivier,

Rosettes on the undersides of the upper wing were common, but no rosettes on the upper surface? That is very unusual. For the tail I would say definitely NOT red, just looking at the tonal appearance on the photo above, I'd say it matches either the blue or the linen but it is far lighter than the red.

The benefit of the lack of proof is that no-one can prove you wrong however you do it. You have to make "an educated guess" and go with that!

 

Ian

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

Rosettes on the undersides of the upper wing were common, but no rosettes on the upper surface? That is very unusual

Hi Ian,

First thank you for your contribution!

I must say that, being not a specialist (far away), I tried to make researches on the Net for the rosettes. Doing so, I think I never saw Nieuport having both rosettes on upper AND undersides of the upper wing. On the other hand, I saw them sometimes on undersides, sometimes on upper surfaces. The same on paintings, and on the Musée de l'Air Nieuport 11. 

Eduard suggests that the rosettes were on the undersides of both wings, as the instruction above show. 

I should have an answer soon from Marc Chassard, who is a specialist and could maybe bring us the light.

1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

For the tail I would say definitely NOT red, just looking at the tonal appearance on the photo above, I'd say it matches either the blue or the linen but it is far lighter than the red.

That is exactly what I thought first, and, to be true, I had to modify my labels on the Eduard instruction pic just above. Indeed, at first glance, you compare this upper surface with the red of the tricolor vertical stabilizer, that is much much darker, and you say: no, red impossible!

But now, look at the upper surface of the fuselage, on the red portion. Because of the sun, it appears very light, much much lighter compared with the vertical stabilizer, and then you have to admit that the horizontal stabilizer could possibly be red. 

We have to be very careful with photos, especially of this period (we ever saw that about the blue).

 

 

1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

The benefit of the lack of proof is that no-one can prove you wrong however you do it. You have to make "an educated guess" and go with that!

Yes, that's true, but I however try to make the best choices, the most probable. It was not really my problem on the first build, as I followed JMV in his choices (often very relevant, by the way).

But with this one, while trying to keep the artistic aspects of the first build, I want to be as close as possible from truth or probability of truth.

 

All the best,    Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

N.B: in the same vein, I will have to check and maybe do small corrections on the upper wing strips to take in consideration the struts to come... 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The (not very good) experience with the 2 mm masking tape (low tack) leads me to modify the method:

 

 

[Bughunter]

On 4/12/2020 at 8:03 PM, Olivier de St Raph said:

At the request of Frank, I tried to decrease the size, I hope the following experience is improved, so. 

Thank you very much! Yes, it works.

 

You asked, if some ribs are done already (in a picture). Hmm, there is a nice build in 1/32 in the neighbor thread. On page 3 there are decals used to simulate that effect.

 

I thought also about a Triplane, how to simulate that effect. Please see the lower surface of the upper wing in full resolution of that picture:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sopwith_Triplane,_Royal_Air_Force_Museum,_Hendon._(23226322060).jpg

 

So I'm very interested in your results after paint!

 

Cheers,

Frank

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, Bughunter said:

Thank you very much! Yes, it works.

Fine!

 

9 hours ago, Bughunter said:

Hmm, there is a nice build in 1/32 in the neighbor thread. On page 3 there are decals used to simulate that effect.

Yes, I saw that (in the post# 69), p. 3. A lovely build, btw...

 

But I wonder now if I was right doing such a ribs and strips job...

Why? just because I just got the answer of Marc Chassard and he says that I should not refer to the Musée de l'air Nieuport 11, wrong in many aspects (rosettes on top of the upper wing, while they were always on the undersurfaces, to allow an identification from the floor, but also rib stitching that did not exist at that time...).

I reproduce here his full answer (he did not reply about the horizontal stabilizer):

 

"Bonsoir Olivier,

 

1) Cocardes: oui, elles étaient présentes systématiquement sur les plans inférieurs, pour permettre une identification à partir du sol.

En revanche, sur les type 11 et 16, qu'ils soient "toile naturelle" ou "camouflés deux tons", il n'y avait pas de cocardes sur les plans supérieurs.

Sur les plans inférieurs, on trouve également en petits caractères le numéro SFA et le type (voir détail photo ci-joint) - pochoir peint en noir

Attention, il ne faut pas prendre comme référence le Nieuport 11 du Musée de l'Air car il a été restauré à une époque où on ne faisait pas encore de restauration "à l'identique". Cet avion est donc faux de A à Z (pas de joue de fuselage, ailes avec des renforts type lardage qui n'existaient pas à l'époque, cocardes sur les plans supérieurs etc, etc...) - à oublier donc !

 

2) Gouvernail: on voit effectivement sur certaines photos d'époque, lorsqu'elles sont bien exposées, un liserai en périphérie du gouvernail.

Votre avion n'est, en revanche, pas concerné par ce problème, car il s'agit d'un avion dont le gouvernail a été changé ou ré-entoilé "sur le terrain", en tout cas repeint par les mécanos, qui n'ont même pas pris la peine de ré-inscrire le numéro SFA.

Votre gouvernail est donc simplement bleu/blanc/rouge, sans autre inscription ou liserai.

 

Bien cordialement

Marc"

 

I translate basically:

- on Nieuport 11 and 16, systematically, rosettes on the undersides, never on the upper surfaces (Eduard right on this point)

- on the undersides, SFA number and type (black painted stencil) see the pic attached below

- warning: the musée de l'Air Nieuport was restored at a time when restoration was not done "identically", especially regarding the rosettes and the rib stitching

- vertical stabilizer: there is often an edging but not on this one, because the derive was changed or fabric recovered "in the field"., anyway repainted by the repairmen, that did not even register again the SFA number. (Eduard wrong on this point, providing masks to represent this edging).

 

 

Notice that this great quality picture corroborates the explanations of Marc: no rib relief, just flat and nearly invisible strips... It is a tough break for me, who spent a lot of time on this aspect..

I should remove all my ribs (and so the strips on the latter) and represent maybe only the longitudinal strips (2 mm masking tape), while the ribs, about 0,3 / 0,4 mm, will be just painted, like the peripheral edging... 

 

We can see here how tricky this build is...

 

Olivier

 

P.S: I will insist with Marc to get his opinion about the horizontal stabilizer color...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

10 hours ago, Bughunter said:

So I'm very interested in your results after paint!

So, sorry, you won't see them, Frank...

 

 

N.B: the part is left in the bath just a few seconds, it is enough, to avoid damaging the polystyren where it is thin...

 

I have sent a new e-mail to Marc, to get his opinion (imho, we may just make assumptions) about the wheels and horizontal stabilizer colors.

In the same time, I asked him if he knew about a really faithful restoration of a Nieuport 11.

And finally, I asked him if he had got some other pics like the one he sent me, very useful definitely, especially now that I know I can't trust on the Le Bourget Nieuport...

 

ATB,    Olivier 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

Though, on the previous close-up (post# 143), we may see, on a Nieuport 16, strips slightly visible. I wonder if I should represent them (if yes, the best option would be to use the very thin Bare Metal Foil) or not at all.

The BMF could be a good compromise, but being a metal surface, it is probably a bit tricky from the painting step to come... 

 

Edit: Marc agrees with me, all color options are possible for the horizontal stabilizer. Though, personally and instinctively, he doesn't think that the red is the most probable option.

Furthermore, he sent me 2 other pics, to my request, as I am working on the fins and empennage hinges This one is particularly interesting:

 

 

 

 

I don't know why my labels are black, but this is a very interesting info...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

My wings and horizontal stabilizer are now ready for the painting work.

What strategy for the latter?

On my first build, following JMV, I first painted the ribs, then masking them to apply the linen base color. But I won't do the same here, for a simple reason: the only 0,3 mm masking tape I have is the Hasegawa one (I don't know if a classic masking tape exists in 0,3 mm).

Yet, as I mentioned above, this masking tape (Kabuki) doesn't give neat edges.

As I intend to represent some ribs wider than other ones (following the great doc above due to Marc Chassard), I prefer to apply first the linen base, and then use wider masks ("à la carte"). It will be easier to cut the latter than 0,3 mm ones. 

The following steps will be developed a bit later...

 

ATB,  Olivier

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Before beginning the painting job on wings and horizontal stabilizer (I decided the latter would be painted linen, in the lack of any certainty), some important precautions are necessary:

 

It is very important that the parts to be painted are securely held. Nothing more stressful than a part falling during the painting job...

 

 

 

 

Like for the empennage, it was impossible to determine the color of the wheels. In this instance, it is an aesthetic choice (subjective, necessarily) that is done:

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

As I have to wait, I think about next steps to come, like the edging color:

 

 

Next step: the ribs...

 

Thanks for watching

 

Cheers, Olivier

[RichieW]

Still loving it. What colour did you use for the undersides?It looks like a lovely rich honey tone.