Any Roland CII experts in here?

[Eivind Lunde]

I've just started the Eduard Profipak kit, but having checked around I have a few questions:

 

I'm going for the fish scales version flown by Seibert & Pfleger, but according to Wingnut Wings the CII and CIIa early production were usually light blue, blue grey or pale yellow, having the smaller rudder, a steering wheel and no gun for the pilot, the CIIa late production would change to a stick, add a gun and also have camouflage.

 

- So, this must mean that this plane is either a CII, or early production CIIa, and should therefore have the small rudder, steering wheel, and no Spandau gun?

- Or should it have the Schwarzlose gun shooting over the propeller, as other early types? (I see now it may in fact be a Lewis gun, and not standard at all)

- Are there any pictures of this plane, as I haven't been able to find anything but drawings?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Eivind Lunde

[Seawinder]

I'm no Walfisch expert, but I did build the same kit a couple of months ago. I don't know what to say about the gun, although it seems more likely to have had the Spandau, but from what I read, the larger empennage was only found on a relatively small number of very late production aircraft, so almost certainly go with the smaller parts.

[wmcgill]

2 hours ago, Eivind Lunde said:

I've just started the Eduard Profipak kit, but having checked around I have a few questions:

 

I'm going for the fish scales version flown by Seibert & Pfleger, but according to Wingnut Wings the CII and CIIa early production were usually light blue, blue grey or pale yellow, having the smaller rudder, a steering wheel and no gun for the pilot, the CIIa late production would change to a stick, add a gun and also have camouflage.

 

- So, this must mean that this plane is either a CII, or early production CIIa, and should therefore have the small rudder, steering wheel, and no Spandau gun?

- Or should it have the Schwarzlose gun shooting over the propeller, as other early types? (I see now it may in fact be a Lewis gun, and not standard at all)

- Are there any pictures of this plane, as I haven't been able to find anything but drawings?

 

 

 

 

 

This would appear to be the real aircraft.Unfortunately the color scheme appears to be based on an old profile illustration and not a real aircraft (that I have ever seen proof of).

 

The mouth & eyes are copied from a single famous C.II. 

 

The diamond shaped fish scales would appear to have been an invention of the original illustrator.

 

A single photo was published in the Windsock Datafile and a 2nd (clearer) photo was recently listed/sold on eBay (photo linked above). Comparing both photos confirm it was an early production C.IIa and that the fish scales are not diamond shaped, they are shaped much more like real fish scales. 

 

Unless of course the drawing accurately illustrates a different Roland which exists in a photo lost to history. 

[wmcgill]

[Eivind Lunde]

Interesting... I guess that there could be several Roland CII's with fish scales due to its nickname, but this is the closest thing I have seen to a real one. Do the picture come with any reference as to who the pilots were, or which unit they belonged to? 

And when I compare the Eduard fuselage with the pictures and drawings of the CIIa late on WingNut Wings homepage, I think it is pretty clear that the fuselage is for the later CIIa models, due to its many engine vents which seems to be missing from earlier models. 

 

The kit does supply the most important parts for an earlier model, the smaller rudder and elevators, so I may try to backdate it to look more like the early model. Or maybe go for a later scheme with the time consuming 4 colour camouflage, but with added bonus in the form of curtains and a shark mouth. 

[stevehed]

There is a thread in the RFI section by AdrianMF of the Airfix 1/72 Roland CII. The photos show a good example of the improvised mounting the Germans used with captured Lewis guns. I believe one early practioner may have been MvR.

 

Regards, Steve

[wmcgill]

3 hours ago, Eivind Lunde said:

Interesting... I guess that there could be several Roland CII's with fish scales due to its nickname, but this is the closest thing I have seen to a real one. Do the picture come with any reference as to who the pilots were, or which unit they belonged to? 

And when I compare the Eduard fuselage with the pictures and drawings of the CIIa late on WingNut Wings homepage, I think it is pretty clear that the fuselage is for the later CIIa models, due to its many engine vents which seems to be missing from earlier models. 

 

The kit does supply the most important parts for an earlier model, the smaller rudder and elevators, so I may try to backdate it to look more like the early model. Or maybe go for a later scheme with the time consuming 4 colour camouflage, but with added bonus in the form of curtains and a shark mouth. 

No ID with the ebay sale, but the other photo of this scene published in the Datafile (and Cross & Cockade Volume 13 Number 3 from 1972) identify it as coming from Flieger-Abteilung (A) 292b. This same photo also confirms the common C.IIa style of lMG 08 forward firing machine gun (not a captured Lewis gun). And no mouth or eye painted on the nose.   

[Eivind Lunde]

5 hours ago, wmcgill said:

No ID with the ebay sale, but the other photo of this scene published in the Datafile (and Cross & Cockade Volume 13 Number 3 from 1972) identify it as coming from Flieger-Abteilung (A) 292b. This same photo also confirms the common C.IIa style of lMG 08 forward firing machine gun (not a captured Lewis gun). And no mouth or eye painted on the nose.   

Ok, so then it most likely is not the one in the kit, as Seibert and Pfleger belonged to Feldfliegerabteilung 5b according to Eduard. I may have a kit with a spare Lewis gun, shouldn't be too hard to backdate the kit and just use the kit decals, or perhaps make Ritter Von Sleich's aircraft instead.

Hmmm, decisions decisions...

[europapete]

If you go onto the wingnuts site, look at the Roland intructions and the Archive photo's, there are many on this plane and good close ups of the front lewis gun mount. Regards, Pete in RI

[Eivind Lunde]

1 hour ago, europapete said:

If you go onto the wingnuts site, look at the Roland intructions and the Archive photo's, there are many on this plane and good close ups of the front lewis gun mount. Regards, Pete in RI

Yep, it is a goldmine that site. I use it every time I build one of Eduards WWI models, and I assume their research is as close to the state of the art you can hope to achieve when it comes to things that are more than 100 year old now.

But still, lots of things we really don't know.