Spitfire Mk II

[zigster]

Guess, it is not a big deal to make Mk II out of new Tamiya Spitfire Mk I. Is it only a teardrop bulge on starboard side, or there is more to it?

Got to look for a proper placement too. Plans, oh, plans...

Why most decals leave out individual letter from under the cowling? Looks to me as a fairly common thing those days?

Anyway, any info on Mk II would be welcomed, as I don't know much about early Spits.

Zig

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Zig

Add blunt Rotol spinner and wider chord Jablo propeller blades to the list. And I will probably remember more after a doze of caffeine from my morning coffee kicks in ... Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Due to switch from HF to VHF R/T wire antenna from the mast to the top of vertical tail had been removed by late 1940. At about the same time IFF wire antennae from fuselage sides to horizontal tail fins had been added.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Jure Miljevic
P.S. added

[Work In Progress]

17 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Add blunt Rotol spinner and wider chord Jablo propeller blades to the list.

For most examples of the Spitfire II, but not all had the blunt Rotol

 

No plan needed, just look at the picture 

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Jure Miljevic]

Thanks, Work in Progress, for this correction. Zig, is there a specific Mk.II you are inquiring about? Cheers

Jure

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, zigster said:

Guess, it is not a big deal to make Mk II out of new Tamiya Spitfire Mk I. Is it only a teardrop bulge on starboard side, or there is more to it?

Got to look for a proper placement too. Plans, oh, plans...

Why most decals leave out individual letter from under the cowling? Looks to me as a fairly common thing those days?

Anyway, any info on Mk II would be welcomed, as I don't know much about early Spits.

Zig

 

 

As sated, you need a Rotol propeller unit,  this is the same on as fitted to most BoB Hurricanes,  as is often an optional part (both old and new tool airfix Hurricane kits have this as optional part),  and i think this is also a spare in the new tool Airfix Spitfire Mk.I/II kit.

3-D model did a prop and decals set a while back as well

 

see here, a very early Mk.II, shows prop and coffman starter bulge.

19 Squadron 45 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

Individual cowl letter is a merely a possible.  Not widely appreciated is how many small variations there are in RAF Squadron markings. There is no 'font' for codes, there is not fixed size.  there is NO placement order. 

If you strive for accuracy, work from a photo.

 

as for placement, placement of what?  Codes?  Work from a photo

 

for general background on Spitfire markings

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

 

for marking position and pattern.  Note dimensions

 

For best results here, ask a specific question.

 

finally, BoB era Spitfire II photos are very rare. 

 

HTH

[malpaso]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

 

 

No plan needed, just look at the picture 

 

A picture of any BBMF aircraft is hopeless for wartime data.  P7350 has been subject to all kinds of indignities to stay airworthy!

[Work In Progress]

now amended as below.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, malpaso said:

A picture of any BBMF aircraft is hopeless for wartime data. 

This is a ridiculous and factually incorrect statement.  This is not a situation where a wheel and tyre have been substituted off a post-war jet. 99% of everything on a BBMF aircraft can teach you something about a wartime aircraft providing you know what you are looking at and why it is there. 

The question was the placement of the Coffman bulge. P7350 has the Coffman bulge in the same place as any other Spitfire II. The photo is a better reference for that purpose than any scale drawing of a Spitfire II cowling.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Work In Progress

[malpaso]

Well when you posted the picture it was solely in regards to the propellor and or spinner, which are clearly anachronistic 

[Seawinder]

FWIW, I just built an Airfix kit as a Mk. II, and from what I read, a fairly good number of the planes with Rotol props were retrofitted with the DeHavilland units, especially later on (1941 into 42). Period photos are your friends on this.

[gingerbob]

Hmm, that's an interesting question.  I know that for a time in early '41 Mk IIs were being delivered with DH props, but I haven't heard of any subsequent retrofitting as a trend (that I remember!)

 

There's a very slight difference on the instrument panel, for those who get that meticulous, but otherwise I think it's been pretty well answered.  Including the caveat that period photos are your friends!

 

bob

[Smithy]

I built the new mould 1/72 Airfix I as a II using 3-D Kits conversion set which I was really thrilled with. Not sure if it's still available but if it is or you see one for sale well worth picking up.

 

 

And yes it should have the IFF wires fitted but when I took this I'd lost my roll of invisible thread!

Edited March 15, 2020 by Smithy

[dnl42]

@Troy Smith, that's a wonderful treasure trove of contemporaneous photos! Thank you so much!

 

When did the red MG covers come into use? They're not visible in the photos I've seen so far. Perhaps more to the point, does a BoB aircraft have them? Apologies if I'm the last person to not know this...

[Smithy]

16 minutes ago, dnl42 said:

@Troy Smith, that's a wonderful treasure trove of contemporaneous photos! Thank you so much!

 

When did the red MG covers come into use? They're not visible in the photos I've seen so far. Perhaps more to the point, does a BoB aircraft have them? Apologies if I'm the last person to not know this...

 

If you're talking about the gun patches then properly when the war really got underway and specifically as a response to the first winter of the war which was quite harsh and lead to lubricants and grease in the guns freezing.

 

A Battle of Britain aircraft in frontline combat service will most likely have them as by this stage it was a specified step in the rearming and servicing procedures. Saying that is there the possibility that an aircraft that has landed to be refuelled and rearmed in short order to take off again because more raid plots are appearing on the sector plotting table, might not have them applied in this rushed scenario? Highly likely I would say.

[Seawinder]

3 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Hmm, that's an interesting question.  I know that for a time in early '41 Mk IIs were being delivered with DH props, but I haven't heard of any subsequent retrofitting as a trend (that I remember!)

 

There's a very slight difference on the instrument panel, for those who get that meticulous, but otherwise I think it's been pretty well answered.  Including the caveat that period photos are your friends!

 

bob

You could well be right about being their delivered with DH props rather than their being retrofitted.

[303sqn]

3 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Hmm, that's an interesting question.  I know that for a time in early '41 Mk IIs were being delivered with DH props, but I haven't heard of any subsequent retrofitting as a trend (that I remember!)

That's people making asumptions and stating them as facts. There are a number of photographs in Gifts of War of MK IIs with dH props taken at CBAF before they were delivered.

[robert.xii]

Hi,

if you still need some help regarding Spitfire II - Mushroom Publications will issue next week a SINGLE booklet about Spitfire IIA. With drawings and pictures of Spitfire II.

As i know, Spitfire II had an additional panel on starboard cowling to access Cofman starter magazine. Additionally starter exhaust behind bulge.

There were not an access panel for electrical starter plug nor hole for crank.

Both types of propeller: de Havilland and Rotol were used.

 

Robert

 

[Work In Progress]

On 3/15/2020 at 3:45 PM, malpaso said:

Well when you posted the picture it was solely in regards to the propellor and or spinner, which are clearly anachronistic 

No it wasn't. It was solely in relation to the placement of the Coffman blister

[Graham Boak]

On 3/15/2020 at 9:29 PM, 303sqn said:

That's people making asumptions and stating them as facts. There are a number of photographs in Gifts of War of MK IIs with dH props taken at CBAF before they were delivered.

Photographs of DH props on the line at CB, unless confidently dated, do not contradict a statement that this applied to early aircraft.  Which aircraft show these props?  Nor that there is no known evidence of retrofits.  The comments have always been not that Rotol were the only props used on Mk.IIs but that this was predominantly true, with the counter-statement that Rotol props were rare on Supermarine Mk.Is.

 

In order to demonstrate either position, we need evidence from the production serials.  Not that no aircraft from CB had DH props - no-one is arguing that - but which ones did.  Evidence may well tell us about of batches with one prop rather than the other, depending upon supply, and when they occurred.  Or it may not.  Does Gifts of War actually provide any such evidence of bias in production?  Otherwise, photos of late serials in RAF service with DH props will not in itself prove evidence of any refitting programme (as opposed to any possible oddball refittings) nor that they came from a consistent production batch.  

 

it may be possible to carry out a survey of all known photos of Mk.IIs and identify which had which prop at the time the photo was taken, and Gifts of War is a good start.  This may provide some evidence, though I expect only in a patchwork manner.  Until then the comments in my first paragraph stand as a good working assumption based on observation.

[gingerbob]

I've already kinda done that, Graham, and one particular is that almost all the IIBs (for which I've found photos) have DH props.  Combine that with a couple of memos concerning a shortage of Rotols, and I can confidently say "spring '41".  I do not have Gifts of War, however, but some kind soul, perhaps even you, may have had a sweep through on my behalf.

 

Note that I only said I didn't remember a retrofit program.  There was talk of saving Rotols for Mk.Vs, but little evidence that this was done in practice, unless the II situation IS that evidence.  I've also seen talk that there was just more damage to props in service than originally anticipated, let alone possible new demands (all those Defiants getting Rotols?  [I tried to put a "wink" here, but twice it put it at the start of this post instead])

Edited March 31, 2020 by gingerbob

[zigster]

Gentlemen! You are superb "bunch of knowledge :-)", and I thank you for sharing that.

Hope someone else will have use of it. Not much talk/info about Mk II's around.

As for letters under the nose - they were there, on many a/c. Hurris, Spits, Mustangs, RAF rules, or not.

Why do I have to use Letraset rub-on, when it should be a part of the markings they reproducing for particular a/c?

Sloppy research? Big savings on printing extra letters ?

Zig