Royal Navy Corsair with added new Questions.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

     Hello everyone.. While digging up markings options i came across this profile. I cant seem to find actual photo’s though ? 
Im curious to know the story behind this particular plane, why USN camo on an atlantic RN corsair in Ireland ? Are the codes in fact yellow ? Or should they be grey or sky ? If I can nail the info down on this particular Corsair. Then this would become a quick contender, for one of the three builds I'm doing in the Corsair STGB. 

 

Dennis

Edited May 25, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[expositor]

Hey Dennis,

 

There's a pic of this plane in SAM issue of May '84 in the article "American Aircraft in the FAA."  It's clearly in the scheme drawn, and since its unit is a 700 series squadron, the codes are more than likely yellow.  Hope this helps.

 

Jim

[Dana Bell]

Hi Dennis,

 

The aircraft was a Brewster-built Corsair III.  Brewster got so far behind in production that the Navy insisted that a number of aircraft intended for the US needed to be diverted to the FAA, hence the American camouflage.

 

BTW, despite the caption, not all the colors were non-specular: the upper surfaces of the wings and stabilizers, aft of the leading edges, were semi-gloss.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[Troy Smith]

14 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Im curious to know the story behind this particular plane, why USN camo on an atlantic RN corsair in Ireland ? Are the codes in fact yellow ? Or should they be grey or sky ? If I can nail the info down on this particular Corsair.

training unit, hence yellow codes... you even posted in this thread ..

 

the real one

 

I'm guessing that's roundel blue behind the BH2? 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

training unit, hence yellow codes... you even posted in this thread ..

the real one

I'm guessing that's roundel blue behind the BH2? 

Thanks for posting the real photo Troy, Im lucky I remember what I did yesterday let alone two years ago. Is that a camera port behind the roundel ? Enquiring minds wonder if it is where the fuselage vent would be, and its opened/removed for access ? 
 

Dennis

[Troy Smith]

33 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Is that a camera port behind the roundel ? Enquiring minds wonder if it is where the fuselage vent would be, and its opened/removed for access ? 

well both @tonyot and @85sqn  did models,  so they maybe able to add more.    

 

34 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Im lucky I remember what I did yesterday let alone two years ago.

I do on occasion find a BM thread I posted in, but forgot about!  Usually I can remember what has been posted over the years, which makes them easier to find. But, yes, I have selective memory... that allows me to forget about the washing up or some other household chore as soon as it's out of sight

[Dana Bell]

Hi Dennis,

 

That's the vent intake behind the roundel; on most aircraft it would be covered with a forward-facing intake scoop.  The ventral exhaust is below, several inches back.

 

Somehow the aft fuselage formed a venturi, sucking exhaust fumes in though the lower hatch and tail wheel well, eventually endangering the cockpit.  The US Navy thought they could seal the bulkhead behind the radios, while the Brits preferred the vent system.  Eventually the US recognized the advantages of the British system and added their own vents.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[85sqn]

Thanks for the notification Troy. Yes it's a Brewster built Corsair MkIII. There is a photo in 'Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm' by Sturtivant. I'll find a photo of my example.

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello everyone I need some help here. I was going to build this Corsair. 
I was under the impression it was possibly 1836 Squadron. However @Graham Boak was kind enough to correct my mistake.
    “The 8 normally means the third fighter squadron on the carrier, which suggests one of the armoured deck Fleet carriers.  However the only other unit to carry an 8 in this period was (apparently) 1831, which was in Northern waters in early 1945, being carried from the US on HMS Pursuer and joining the new Light Fleet carrier HMS Glory.  Not likely to have had three fighter squadrons, to say the least.  The unit code was actually Y8 so the first letter may not have been carried.  I can't see a serial on the transfer sheet, but 1831 had Mk.IVs not Mk.IIs.”

 

Does anyone know if this plane ever existed ? If it did and is a Mk.IV it should be in GSB.
    Im looking for a T.S.S. Corsair with Roundels like this for a North Atlantic unit or one doing workups in the Atlantic, so if anyone can recommend one please help. 

Dennis

Edited May 25, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Ok doing a bit of a search could the plane be from 1843 Sq. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1843_Naval_Air_Squadron

 

”No.1843 Squadron Fleet Air Arm formed at Brunswick on 1. May 1944 as a single seater fighter squadron. Equipped with 18 Corsair IIIs, these were replaced by Mk.IIs before embarking in HMS Trouncer for the UK in August 1944. Joining the 10th Naval Fighter Wing, ”

 

Dennis

 

A corsair IV is a 1D isn't it ? So all i would have to do is fix the canopy and spray it GSB to get  a Mk.IV ? 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Troy Smith]

53 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

A corsair IV is a 1D isn't it ?

AFAIK, a Corsair IV is a FG-1D, as in Goodyear built, like Corsair III was Brewster built.  I don't know if they were all GSB or not.

 

4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Im looking for a T.S.S. Corsair with Roundels like this for a North Atlantic unit or one doing workups in the Atlantic, 

IIRC there were Corsair used during the Tirpitz raids, and/or in Norwegian waters? 

a quick google...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Goodwood_(naval)

Quote

The aircraft carriers embarked the largest group of Fleet Air Arm aircraft assembled up to that point in the war.[16] Their main striking element was the 35 Barracudas assigned to 820, 826, 827, and 828 Naval Air Squadrons which operated from the three fleet carriers. The two units of 6 Naval Fighter Wing, 1841 and 1842 Squadrons, flew 30 Corsairs from Formidable. A total of 48 Seafires were assigned to 801, 880, 887 and 894 Squadrons on board Indefatigable and Furious. In addition, 1770 and 1840 Squadrons operated 12 Fairey Firefly and 12 Hellcat fighters respectively from Indefatigable. The two escort carriers embarked a total of 20 Grumman TBF Avengers (which had responsibility for the mine-dropping element of Operation Goodwood) and 8 Grumman F4F Wildcat fighters; these aircraft were split between 846 Squadron on board Trumpeter and 852 Squadron on Nabob.[11][26]

google image "faa corsair tirpitz raids" brings up some pics

Or is that not what you need?  

 

You need our FAA buffs, @iang  @85sqn @Grey Beema  are members who spring to mind.  

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Thanks @Troy Smith if that helps me all the better, otherwise I will go for a delivery scheme like these. 
 

 

Hopefully one of your suggested Members can help me out. 

 

Dennis

[85sqn]

On 3/14/2020 at 5:23 PM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Thanks for posting the real photo Troy, Im lucky I remember what I did yesterday let alone two years ago. Is that a camera port behind the roundel ? Enquiring minds wonder if it is where the fuselage vent would be, and its opened/removed for access ? 
 

Dennis

Dennis, the vent is just behind the camera. As far as I know the port opens up to reveal the camera. There's also one underneath. (Wrote that before seeing Dana's post)

 

Your photo of 8-L is from 1836 Sqn whilst on HMS Victorious during Tirpitz ops. It is a Corsair MkII aka F4U-1A or F4U-1D. I haven't got a serial to hand at the moment.

 

If you want a TSS scheme with these roundels then you want squadrons that operated Corsair MkII's or MkI's (If you want to do a birdcage version). All the Corsair MkIV's are in GSB.

 

1834, 1836, 1841, 1842 all attacked the Tirpitz and so had TSS with Type C-1 roundels.

[85sqn]

Of course Corsair MkIII's came in TSS as well and they normally (but not always) lived on training Sqns such as 759 (Coded Y2).

 

There's plenty of options out there.

[85sqn]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

AFAIK, a Corsair IV is a FG-1D, as in Goodyear built, like Corsair III was Brewster built.  I don't know if they were all GSB or not.

 

IIRC there were Corsair used during the Tirpitz raids, and/or in Norwegian waters? 

a quick google...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Goodwood_(naval)

google image "faa corsair tirpitz raids" brings up some pics

Or is that not what you need?  

 

You need our FAA buffs, @iang  @85sqn @Grey Beema  are members who spring to mind.  

Don't forget a Corsair MkIV can be an FG-1A and an FG-1D. Both built by Goodyear and both delivered in GSB. The difference is the plumbing for the fuel tanks and the 1A has wing fuel tanks whereas the 1D doesn't and instead has the plumbing for the double underbelly fuel tanks/bomb racks.

[Graham Boak]

KD178 was a Mk.IV - there's no information on its service history.

 

Mk.IVs were delivered in GSB because Goodyear had no previous FAA contracts and so delivered aircraft to lend-lease standards i.e. as if they were going to the USN.  How this is compatible with the clipped wingtips is another matter.  The FAA had already agreed to accept aircraft in GSB.  Aircraft built by Vought were following on from (or perhaps just completing?) British contracts and so were in British colours - though I believe still counted as lend-Lese despite not being fully compliant with the rules.  I didn't know of any delivered in GSB but they must have been pretty late on in the run - I've just seen a picture of JT505 in TSS.

[Work In Progress]

I thought Goodyear did not build them with clipped wingtips but that Corsairs had the tips modified, and other ex-works mods to make them suitable for FAA use, by Blackburn Aircraft. Some of the Blackburn work being done in the UK, and some being done by Blackburn-employed work parties sent to the USA to do the necessary work there after the official end of the factory production lines once the aircraft had in the eyes of the law been handed over to UK custodianship.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

That would be likely, but I understood that they were delivered directly to Australia which would mean only a few went via the UK.  But I haven't got numbers handy.

[Work In Progress]

Presumably done by Blackburn's US-based workers then

[Dana Bell]

49 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

I thought Goodyear did not build them with clipped wingtips but that Corsairs had the tips modified, and other ex-works mods to make them suitable for FAA use, by Blackburn Aircraft. Some of the Blackburn work being done in the UK, and some being done by Blackburn-employed work parties sent to the USA to do the necessary work there after the official end of the factory production lines once the aircraft had in the eyes of the law been handed over to UK custodianship.

 

Hi WIP,

 

Nearly all Mark Is were delivered with regular USN wingtips.  JT101 tested the factory-installed short wingtip.  Kits were produced for the installation of short tips on every Mark I.  Most were modified in the US by Andover Kent, some in the UK, and some may have never been modified.

 

The first Mark IIs were delivered with USN wingtips; JT425 and subsequent were delivered with short wingtips.  Enough short wingtip kits were produced to modify all earlier aircraft.  Later "short short" wingtips were produced to retrofit to all Mark IIs.

 

Mark IIIs were similar to Mark IIs, with the switch to factory-installed short tips beginning with JS543.  Again, enough kits were produced to fit short, and later short short, wintips to all Mark IIIs.

 

When Goodyear took over production of Lend Lease Corsairs for the FAA, the short short wingtip was already standard; all Mark IVs came with short short wingtips.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Edited May 25, 2020 by Dana Bell

[85sqn]

Regarding MkIV's in GSB. I met a chap a few years back who's friends Grandad had flown Corsairs out in Ceylon with 733 Sqn. He had made a model of the Corsair which he said was a MkIV but was in TSS. He said he had a a photo and in the back was written a serial of a MkIV: KD659.

 

The model can be found on this page: 

 https://poolevikingsblog.wordpress.com/

 

Just keep scrolling down until you find it. Now I have a copy of the original photo he sent me somewhere but I didn't have the heart to tell him I just didn't believe it's a MkIV. It has the canopy frames and it's in TSS.

 

That is not to say never say never I just haven't come across a repainted MkIV (if they ever were repainted in TSS).

 

As an aside, I have been collecting original photos of Corsairs with the intention of creating a publication that would benefit modellers. Specifically it will be about FAA Corsairs. If anyone has any original Corsair photos they would like to part with, please let me know.

 

 

[Seahawk]

KD659 would have been a Mk.IV so the question must be which aircraft is shown in the photo.  Like you, I find it very hard to credit that any Mk.IVs were repainted in TSS.  A code of I7 looks a bit odd as well: AFAIK, it is associated only with various Rattray (UK)-based units, mainly flying Fireflies and Barracudas.  BTW a lot of FAA Mk.IVs did have the canopy framing above the pilot's head. As far as I have been able to work out (and i don't know whether or not this info benefits from Dana's Corsair books or not), they were deleted on KD662 and subsequent aircraft, which means 450-odd Mk.IVs had the frame unless retrofitted.

 

Look forward to the book!

[Graham Boak]

KD659 is recorded as being with 733 Sq for a month or two but its code(s) are not listed.  Previously it had been with 757 Sq. at Puttalam  The codes for aircraft at Puttalam were P followed by two numbers, whereas aircraft at Tambaram had the prefix T.  Could the photo show a T prefix?  T79 was KD361, another Mk.IV.  Otherwise, I would not like to be too dogmatic about possible codes on aircraft in the Eastern training bases.  (Or, being Navy, should that be on the Eastern training bases?)

[TonyOD]

On 3/14/2020 at 2:59 PM, Troy Smith said:

training unit, hence yellow codes...

Can I pick your brains on this?

 

Did all Corsairs use for training purposes carry yellow codes? I'm planning to do this Corsair for the upcoming Heller Classic GB. Here the codes are shown as sky, the Xtradecal sheet has them more like white. The a/c in question, far as I can tell, was based in the US and used for training of FAA pilots before it was ferried over to the UK aboard HMS Ranee. It didn't last long over here before it was relegated to ground instruction and then scrapped.

 

 

However I've come across several pictures of this American gentleman and his impressive R/C Corsair in an FAA scheme. He has the codes (albeit 12VS, not 12V9) in yellow and that had me a bit puzzled.

 

 

Which would be correct, do you think? Could it be that the yellow codes were repainted when the a/c was no longer used for training?

 

Thanks, and apologies for hijacking the thread.

[Seahawk]

The general rule was that aircraft of training units wore yellow codes but photographic evidence indicates to me that this did not invariably apply to the units forming and working up in the States, where the codes often, in fact usually, appear to be white.

 

As regards JT601, 848 Sq disbanded soon after arriving in the UK aboard Ranee, with her crew and aircraft shared between 1843 and 1850 Sqs (who would undoubtedly have remarked her in their own squadron markings).  There is no record in Sturtivant as to where JT601 was between leaving 1848 Sq in 11/44 and turning up as a ground instructional airframe at 5 School of Technical Training in 5/44.  However, even at that late stage in her career, she was still marked as 12V9 so presumably didn't do much.  There is a photo of her at 5 SoTT on p.297 of Ballance's The Squadrons and Units of the Fleet Air Arm.  By that stage the codes certainly were not white.  Sky and yellow seem possibilities and on instinct alone I plump for yellow.

 

By the way, shoddy profiles knocked up quick and disseminated like wildfire over the Internet are the curse of our time.  No FAA Corsair ever had rocket rails of that pattern and the depicted camouflage pattern is only a rough approximation of the demarcations between the two upper surface colours.  By the time of the photo JT601's upper surface colours unusually wrapped-round the wing leading edges by about 4-5".

 

Can't fault the model beyond his misreading of the final "9" of the code as "S": easily done - FAA codes are confusing.  In particular he seems to have captured well the shades of the "US equivalent" upper surface colours.  Profile: yuk!