Wez Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 I've read that French Curtiss Helldivers in Indochina flew without the rear gunner on ops. My question is how much equipment in the rear cockpit was also removed? Was it just the guns that were removed or was the gunner's seat and the rear avionics equipment also removed or some combination thereof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janneman36 Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 Maybe this helps a little..if you take a close look at this picture yo still see something what could be a turretring.. http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=495&fullsize=1 the second picture however doesn’t show one . http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=260&fullsize=1 cheers, Jan 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 Thanks Jan, In both of those photos the Gunner/Observer/Navigator is occupying the rear cockpit so evidently his seat would be there. It's difficult to see but in the first linked photo I'm inclined to think there's no/not much avionics fitted. In the second linked photo it's impossible to tell but it looks pretty dark in there so I'm thinking the avionics suite is fitted. There's a note in the Special Hobby painting instructions which says that operational missions were flown without the Gunner, this makes sense for a number of reasons: 1. For the period the markings supplied in the kit 3F were land based at Bach Maï which was presumably hot and humid. 2. Leaving the Gunner and the guns/ammo off would save some weight and would be one less person to get shot at. 3. Radar doesn't seem to have been fitted in most cases so there's no requirement for somebody to operate that kit. 4. Less internal weight means you could carry more weapons - typically the French used HVAR, bombs and napalm, quite a haul! My inclination is that the Gunner's seat was retained - useful if you wanted to carry an extra bod but that the avionics equipment associated with the radar was also removed as unnecessary weight and of no operational use. Anyway, I've got this book on the way, I'm hoping it will provide some more answers. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janneman36 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Hello Wez, you could be right and it makes sense what you are writing.. I hope the book gives you all the info you need and I am interested in how it looks cheers, Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 minute ago, janneman36 said: Hello Wez, you could be right and it makes sense what you are writing.. I hope the book gives you all the info you need and I am interested in how it looks cheers, Jan Thanks Jan, TBH, the subject has got me curious now. The whole question of the Gunner's seat has got me thinking... ...did the French replace the Gunner's seat with its Scarff Ring as an unneccessary piece of kit and replace it with something more useful (and comfortable), for the type of operations they were flying? Hopefully the book will help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 Well I got a book on the Helldiver in French service, unfortunately it didn't mention anything about the Gunner's seat. As guns were never fitted I'm highly doubtful the Scarff ring was fitted but does anyone else have any information on the seat? All of the photo's I've seen aren't very clear on this aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Good morning Wez I don't know if it would help but I have found these photos http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=21&page=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuV6odKZ0uw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0br8URZ4UiA Patrice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share Posted March 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, TEMPESTMK5 said: Good morning Wez I don't know if it would help but I have found these photos http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=21&page=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuV6odKZ0uw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0br8URZ4UiA Patrice Many thanks Patrice, all bookmarked. I came across this one too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fAKl53zj4 From the three videos and the photos I can make out that the Scarff ring was retained. The Model Art Decal instructions mention that the aircraft had quite a worn appearance, the video clips show just how much and where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Wez said: Many thanks Patrice, all bookmarked. I came across this one too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fAKl53zj4 From the three videos and the photos I can make out that the Scarff ring was retained. The Model Art Decal instructions mention that the aircraft had quite a worn appearance, the video clips show just how much and where. Good afternoon Wez Thank you for the link .. As far as I can see on the images I agree with you for the ring .. Have fun with the SH kit I have it in my stash too ... I may try to build it for the Vietnam GB .. All the best Patrice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 minute ago, TEMPESTMK5 said: Good afternoon Wez Thank you for the link .. As far as I can see on the images I agree with you for the ring .. Have fun with the SH kit I have it in my stash too ... I may try to build it for the Vietnam GB .. All the best Patrice Patrice, That's exactly what I'm planning 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 On 3/22/2020 at 3:32 AM, TEMPESTMK5 said: Patrice Sacre bleu! What an incredible website! Thank you so much for posting it! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 2 hours ago, 72modeler said: Sacre bleu! What an incredible website! Thank you so much for posting it! Mike Good evening Mike It's always a pleasure to help friends Patrice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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