JWM Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) Hi, A fascinating and ambitious project by @AdrianMF of making home made vacu fuselage to convert Airfix Sunderland into Empire has an unexpected extension. I have received one of fuselages made in trials by Andrian to make also Empire from Airfix Sunderland. I am very grateful to Adrian for gift I was thinking on scratch build or rather scratch conversion of Airfix Sunderland into Empire from some years. Rougly from time when Itealeri Sunderland appeared and having Airfix one in stash I started to think what can I do with it after buying Italeri kit... I've got drawing from net, scaled them up to 1/72 and realized than to construct fuselage I will need to cut it both horizontally and verticallly shifitng parts and adding new parts between them. The option with vacu fuselage from Andrian look much better as option. The staring point is like that: However I will not start very fast . Currently I am working on Canadian Stranraer. It is already advanced, prepare for riging: Maybe I will go with both build in paralell. Anyway it is a loooong series of hydroplans (flying boats, float planes and amphibians) which I started in Autumn of 2018 with Grummans Goose, Duck and Widgeon, then Curtiss Seamew, Seahawk and Seagull, Martin Mriner, Consolidated Coronado, Boeing 314 (vacu), Catalina and PBN Nomad (vacu conv.), Sikorsky S43, Beriev KOR 1, KOR 2, MBR2 M17 and MBR 2 bis , Savoia SM 55X, Walrus, Sea Otter and not finished yet He 59 and above Stranraer. So the Empire will be no 22 in series... I will keep you informed on progress Regards Jerzy-Wojtek Edited March 10, 2020 by JWM added link 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Looking forward to this one. I can’t think of a safer pair of hands for a project like this. The smart money is on you finishing way before I even close up the fuselage! Regards, Adrian 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 What to say? - I put aside Stranraer riging and finish of He 59 and today's evening I devoted to start of inside of fuselage of Empire Not everythig went perfectly but I will add some putty then Three in middle were cut from 1.5 mm plate (60 thou if I know what is thou) four others from 0.75 mm (30 thou?) Regards J-W 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 Now this sounds like an interesting build 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 Very interesting build. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 On 3/11/2020 at 5:56 PM, Vesa Jussila said: Very interesting build. On 3/11/2020 at 10:51 AM, Adam Poultney said: Now this sounds like an interesting build Let say - I hope so... Thanks for encouraging! I have change my mind - instead of constructing all frames in one half I cut them by half and start to fill both sides in a mirror symmetry Such kind of work was ok in case of build of mine Boeing Clipper 314 year ago. This is intended to have stiff both halves. Airfix Sunderland has construction with last few milimeters of wings moulded together with fuselage. So I have to cut it out The wings are not glued together. I have to construct side floats and their riging before I will glue top and bottom halves of wings. I have no drawings to engines of Short S30, only to S23. And I am not decided yet which exactly Empire I will build. If anybody can provide drawings of engines (cowlings, inlets and exhausts) for S30 I will appreciate very much. The scheme which I consider now the most probable is thata one Or that one (S30) The patrol bomber is more doubtful - I do not have spare Boulton-Pauld turrets and a lot of details are not sure (no drawings) Regards J-W 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.1127 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Following along eagerly. I enjoyed your Boeing 314 build immensely and I have no doubt this will be as good! Jack 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 14, 2020 Author Share Posted March 14, 2020 I cut out wing fairings from Sunderland fuselage and decided to glue it on fuselage halves of Empire - but after change of angle to make leading edges less swept. From inside I glued a pieces cut out from 0.75 mm plastic sheet and then another two (on left side) new fairing part ( or three on right side part - difference due to difference in plastic thickenss) Below you may see also drilled holes for 2 mm diameter brass tube reinforcements which I am planning to add in the final assembly, From top after adding some Tamiya filler And bottom sides (before any sanding) Using tape I made several trials to get right angles or thefirst time I can see the dimensions, it it smaller than Boeing 314significantly but still it is pretty huge! After some sanding and then careful positioning I glued it on sides of fuselage an add some more filler Meanwhile I started to work on tail I forgotten to buy tube if filler, and I am affraid that due to all problems caused by Civid-19 pandemy sanitary regulation the local models shops are closed, so I have to buy in net and wait some days for delivery... Good new is that Airfix Sunderland canopy is only so poorly detailed that maybe it can be used directly for Empire. General dimesions look to be OK at least That is what is done so far, now I am going to finish my He 59 from SCW... Or to do riging of Stranraer... Regards J-W 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 Looking good so far, I don't envy the task ahead to get this finished though 😂 good luck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 Itself the very old idea, Brother - I remember discussing it with you in the late 1980s.... At last it became the reality - congrats! Concerning the engines it is said that of eight Perseus-powered S.30s at least three have been re-engined with poppet-valve Pegasus radials (like the S.23). Thus you have to examine the photos carefully. Cheers Michael 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 20 hours ago, KRK4m said: Itself the very old idea, Brother - I remember discussing it with you in the late 1980s.... Maybe reather early 1990s?... I was not constructing models between 1982 (1983?) till mid 1991... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 Hi, Today I did some work on side floats. First - the position of floats Is a bit closer to fuselage than in Sunderland, moreover sunce the swept angle of wing is different the floats position is also a bit turned. However the floats themselves looks the same. I used also struts from Airfix box, one I have to do myself - apparently I lost it in some way... From back it looked like that One can see here (on left) also the air intakes to oil coolers (? - I guess) - I have added some tubing to be behind inlet... I had to do riging of float before closeing wings The wings are glued (tops and bottoms). Floats with rigings: I an closing the rails used in Sunderland to roll out from fuselage the bombs. I decided not to scribe the pannel lines. I only sand a bit rivets to make them not so emphasized. BTW -In the end of the day I am in about 30 % advanced with Stranraer riging and I fought silvering of decals in He 59... To be cont. Regards J-W 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share Posted March 22, 2020 Hi, I have pause with this project but I have excuse 1. I have finished He 59 B and presented it even on RFI 2. I am ending RCAF Stranraer, it is pretty advanced regarding Empire there is some progress. I have looked at Airfix engines and the 1960 standard is difficult to be accept today. I think I will keep the cowlings themselves, but I will remove current imitation of engines and the props will be replaced. In my drawer I've found only 3 complete propellers I think from MPM/SH/Italeri Wellingron. The fourth prop has only single blade. So meanwhile I am copying in resin four engines from Italeri Sunderland (so far two are ready) and I've just copied two blades of propellers. Here is what I have: Al lthe time I am thinking on ailerons: is there is difference brtween Sunderland and Empire in them? Some drawings suggests, that in case of Empire the aileron leading edge bounds a bit back while going to the direction of wingtip. In Sunderland it is always stright, Is it a real difference? To be cont. Regards J-W J-W 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 THis photo shows the stright front edge of aeileron, so I will not correct the shape, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 25, 2020 Author Share Posted March 25, 2020 I removed the "engines" from cowlings and I have already 4 copies of Italeri engines I also glued in resin copies of prop blades, to replace two damaged The template in background I took from drawer - it is what I did some 15 years ago when I was doing blades for Merlin converson of Airfix Halifax.... I have a "beta plan" in case of problems with decals for civil registration (the silver outlined black characters). I racalled that during my trip to Oslo few years ago I bought some books and booklets on Norwegian airplanes. Among them there is a "Flyhistorie" Nr 35 from 2015. Inside there are some interesting articles. One for example is about catapult airplanes used by Britts in Norway campaign with nice profiles of Fairey Swordfish, Fairey Seafox (!) and Supermarine Walrus, Unfortunatelly text is Norwegian, but photos and drawings are universal, you can understood what is there :) . The more interesting for me today is article containigs some infos on two Shorts Empire used in Norwegian campaign, as I can guess as transport machine. There is a photo showing take off (rather then landig ?) of Empire From the description (please correct me someone who knows Norwegian) I can guess that it shows take of of Short Empire in Bodo harbor on Sunday 5th May 1940, Maybe I am wrong, but nevertheless interesting is that shown here Short Empire apparently has on top of wing roundels "A" not "B", since there are light spots on wings. And no finflash. Above photo it is said (?) that two Empires were imposed to RAF: the Cabot and Caribou with serials V3137 and V3138, respectively. On next page there is a nice profile by Kim Brandenberg shoving Caribou in Navy scheme of 1940 with lt. grey underides and EGSG/DKSG upper surfaces, type A roundels and lack of finflash. On next page there are some takes of damaged Caribou, which confirms lack o yellow outlines on roundels. The lack of finflash is not confirmed here due to damages, however low contrast among upper colors suggests sea scheme. Regards J-W 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 Basically picture text says that Flying boat was attacked by HE-11H comanded by Edgar Caesar. Yes it was taken 5th of May, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 26, 2020 Author Share Posted March 26, 2020 @Vesa Jussila, many thanks. BTW - in your status I 've noticed now "Warsaw" Do you mean: that Warsaw? @Ed Russell PM with some data on Aussie Empires. Many thanks for that! I was not considering seriously constructing Empire in RAAF, but now I've changes my mind. This became a serious option for consideration. I worked a bit on engines. First cowlings - I thinned the back sides of them: So the elements of engines look now like that: I 've changed my mind also regarding the shape of ailerons. I decided to follw drawings, so I will do a small curve toward wingtips That is all for today evening Regards J-W 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 You are welcome. Your conversion is looking good. Perhaps @AdrianMF might have a niche market for "people who like doing it the hard way"! The late Fred Harris - a local modeller - did a similar vacform fuselage and made a pretty good job of his conversion. Perhaps the RAAF and Qantas boats are the most interesting of all. They were certainly worked harder than any others and their more dangerous life saw many casualties.When the CMR one came out, we got interested in the military ones and did a conversion. https://www.redroomodels.com/product/red-roo-raaf-c-class-empire-flying-boat-conv-1-72-scale/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 27, 2020 Author Share Posted March 27, 2020 7 hours ago, Ed Russell said: Your conversion is looking good. Perhaps @AdrianMF might have a niche market for "people who like doing it the hard way"! The late Fred Harris - a local modeller - did a similar vacform fuselage and made a pretty good job of his conversion. Ed, I think yo are right. The conversion is kind of challange which makes this hobby more interesting. BTW - I think that my Stranraer build suggests that a conversion set for RCAF variant would be maybe interesting offert on the market. Similar with Shark - the close canopy and Bristol engine with RCAF decals will rise interest I hope... J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 @JWM yes it is that Warsaw 600km east from Berlin 😉 and I also belief that @AdrianMF have niche market for this. I have interest for this too. Br. Vesa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 There is a huge difference between in the distance between cowling and wing leading edge on different drawings, let have a look at those two: The lower one of above drawings, very detailed, was for me a reference till yesterday, when I noticed lack of exjaust pipes on them and a lack of carburator air intake to inner engines. So I start to have doubts about the accuracy of it and looking for another drawing I have notice this difference, So a photo is needed - it suggests that the true is somewhere in between those two drawings Similar here (below), but maybe a bit longer? I have to check if there is no difference between S23 and S30, since they have different engines and moreover - maximum take off masses, so maybe position of engines were changed to correct CoG position? And how it is in case of Sunderland? Looks for me the same as in Coorong (Empire) Any knowledge of experts in this? Regards J-W 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 Although not feeling an expert, but the CG reason should be considered. Perseus is a Mercury-sized (1520 CID) engine - smaller (stroke shorter by an inch = 25mm) and 10 per cent lighter than a 1750 CID Pegasus. Mind the Lysander, although there the Mk.II (Perseus) had shorter nose than all other (Mercury-powered) marks. The reason was of course that poppet-valved Mercury weighed some 50 kg (100 lbs) less than similarly sized sleeve-valved Perseus. Cheers Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_Bogus Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 I believe the Sunderland had the wings pulled back (not re-located, but rotated aft at the wingtips) to correct the CofG so the engine thrustlines were some degrees away from the direction of flight - the photo shows this well. Sorry I don't know any more detail than this, but may also be a factor in the engine fit? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) Not an expert in this but some links for photos showing the back view of the wings which might show what you're after. https://live.staticflickr.com/5015/5460523299_c39aa5c3d4_b.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1c/4e/1f/1c4e1f4de223594b634743549951503c.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/5f/38/505f389f3091bf618cf52e1345fd9353.jpg colourised https://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/HI/HI-5/23-5.jpg Steve. Edited March 29, 2020 by stevehnz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 Thnak you for comments. Of course the Sunderland has wings rotated to get larger swept angle (if it is proper term in English ) of leading edge. I reproduced it by adding a triangular structure (or prism-like or wedge) from back side to cut out from Sunderland wing- fuselage fairings . Steve, thank you for nice photos, especially the New Zealander color photo is great but I am sorry, apparently you've got me wrong. I do not bother on fairings lenght on top of wing but on how long is the distance between cowling and leading edge. This looks to me slightly longer in case of Sunderland than it is in case of Empier. Since the engineers of Short did not corrected the angle of engines losing some driving force of propellers (as divided by cosinus of the angle between direction of forward and direction of pulling force) ) why they extended the frame on which the engine was mounted? Moreover, the "Coorong" and "Canopus" are (as I found in Net) both S.23 variant, so there should not be difference and on photos I can see some slightly difference in this lenght. I have still some time before I will have to glue cowlings on positions, so I hope someone maybe knows it. I have to search on past threads on Empire in Net. Meanwhile I did some progress. Currently I have some unusual technical problem with publishing my photos so I will do that in second post later, I hope. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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