V-156-B1 Chesapeake interior color quandry

[nsmekanik]

I recently ordered up Academy's re-release of the AM Vindicator kit under the guise of the V-156-B1 Chesapeake. Academy would have you paint the interior aluminum, which for the most part would appear to be correct, however the call out for upper decking behind the pilot is blue grey FS35237.  Now not necessarily would that be wrong as these were taken over from a French order, so the question here is how close is FS35237 to the blue used by the Areonavale?

 

Academy's call out for the framing behind the pilot is aluminum, but as can be seen in this pic I think that is highly unlikely

 

 

In this pic the color of the rear decking seems to be a bit lighter, but of course different film etc. etc.

 

I do realize that it's not possible to determine what color something was based on b&w pictures but any thoughts and or suggestions would be most appreciated.

Also Academy's Camo color call out's are Medium Sea Grey, dark Green, and Gunship Grey, in response to a similar query over at WW2Aircraft Dana Bell replied that he had not researched the interior color of the Chesapeake but he did post up the camo diagram for it, which clearly shows Extra Dark Sea Grey #71-19324 , Dark Slate Grey #71-19323, and Sky type "S" Grey #71-021 "or equivalent" so it would seem Academy's 'suggestions' may be of.........somewhat

 

So in opening up another can of  to digest, any ideas how those DuPont equivalents might compare to the FAA colors?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Plastimic]

Hey nsmekanik, I too am curious about these things. Info on the Chesapeake is really hard to find. I have the Special Hobby 1/72 kit. I am doing a few builds before it to get warmed up. It has some nice stuff and then not such nice stuff. But it's a beautiful canvas for creativity.

 

I have Steve Ginter and Joe Westhers, Jr. Naval Fighters Number 106 Vought SB2U Vindicator book.

 

The Section for the Chesapeake is disappointing and leaves more questions than answers.

 

The following is my synopsis of the two paragraph entry about the chesapeak

 

50 aircraft were redirected from a french cancelled order

 

The,reverse throttle and finger drive brakes were removed

 

A 125 gallon internal center wing tank similar to the Marine SB2U-3 was installed

 

4 .303  with 500 rounds each(2 per side)were installed in the wings( the same wings as the SB2U-3 were on the Chesapeak)

The rear gunner had a single .303 in the special hobby release it's a resin Vickers Lewis gun....I dunno how accurate that is, but it is a .303 caliber weapon.....

 

Heavy armor was added in the form of a full torso and head armored seat. A gunner's armoured seat bucket and additional bulkhead armor as well as armor for the back and bottom of the main fuel tank.

 

There is no mention of the colour of the cockpit and I have yet to find pictures of the armored cockpit. Some photos show the armored head plate others do not. I have a feeling once the British realized what a dud it was after it got weighed down they may have removed the armoured head plate as some late pics show it without. 

 

The aircraft were assembled at Burtonwood Aircraft Repair Depot. This may be helpful as I am sure the FAA museum or other museum may have some documents about Burtonwood. Or some one out there does. 

 

I would even hazard a guess the inside might be interior green? But with so little concrete information no one seems to know even what reflector gunsight was used. I believe if you google Chespeake Cockpit there's an excellent line drawing floating around which also has the mirror.

 

I think I read somewhere they used Hawker Hurricane armored seats. But I have not found any concrete or empirical data to confirm this.

 

Sadly it's a unique subject but information is scarce.

 

 

 

¹

 

 

 

 

[nsmekanik]

I guess considering it was only in front line service for approximately 5 months in 811 sqd before it was replaced by the Swordfish, which pretty much says it all performance wise, would probably explain why info is a little thin on the ground. I would definitely go with Aluminum for the interior as that is what Vought was using in the Vindicator. If I recall correctly the USN Vindicator's had their interiors repainted in interior green when the Camo color was applied after the US entered the war.

 

The Academy instructions are loosely correct, and can be downloaded here, which I believe is based in the one surviving example, of which there are some good interior shots here. I believe the "Blue grey" in the instructions is the same color as applied to that example which would, in my view, be wrong. So the question then is what color would it be in the Aeronvale/Cheasapeake examples. Could very well be the Aeronvale color or one of the British colors depending on how far along the fuselages were when the Brits took over the order.........

[85sqn]

The other option is dull dark green. I have gone for this. I am building the Chesapeake at the moment and my research has told me its either aluminium or dull dark green. Vought used DDG on their early corsairs as well. When typing it into google, some articles crop up by Jamie of Sovereign Hobbies and Hyperscale.

 

When you get to it, look out for the fit of all the cockpit sections especially when joining the fuselage sides...its been a bit of a pain for me! I have also had to make a new bit of glass for the forward cockpit canopy. Academys kit still has the old sight that goes through the windshield. Also, I haven’t found the fit of the underfuselage section very good either and filler required.

 

Best regards 

 

Nick

Edited February 27, 2020 by 85sqn

[nsmekanik]

Thanks for the heads up, I will definitely keep those issues in mind. I agree, the more I look at things the more I think Dull Dark Green is correct as these were being delivered in the same time frame as the USN were getting their SB2U-3's which had the cockpits done up in DDG. and the first pic at least seems to bear this out.

 

Tim

[SleeperService]

I'm trying to determine the same for a planned Cleveland build. There have been discussions about Airacobras HERE and HERE which may help a bit (or not). Minefield doesn't start to cover it. Good luck.

[Dave Fleming]

The Du Pont colours are usually regarded as being very close to the correct UK standards, but the presence of 'or equivalents' opens the door for other colours (Vought are beleived to have used ANA 613 Olive Drab and ANA 603 Sea Gray on Corsairs for example. 603 was of course EDSG brought into the US colour standard). There is also the example of a Cheasapeake flying in the States in what looks like USN Blue gray over Gray scheme, so perhaps the 'blue gray' comes from there

 

Vought used a colour referred to as dull dark green on Corsairs and Kingfishers, so they may have used these on the Chesapeake, but you would also expect a purchasing commission aircraft to have the interiors specifed by the buyer

 

 

[72modeler]

2 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

Vought used a colour referred to as dull dark green

Makes sense, as IIRC, dull dark green was the matte equivalent of Bronze Green, which was a semi-matte paint.

Mike

[Ed Russell]

17 hours ago, nsmekanik said:

 it was only in front line service for approximately 5 months in 811 (Sqn) before it was replaced by the Swordfish, which pretty much says it all performance wise

They were intended for use on escort carriers and the main problem seems to have been that they could not take off in a short distance with a useful load.

They were apparently colloquially known as Cheesecakes in the FAA.

would also expect a purchasing commission aircraft to have the interiors specified by the buyer

The standard French interior would have been blue in that case.

[Seahawk]

4 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

The Du Pont colours are usually regarded as being very close to the correct UK standards, but the presence of 'or equivalents' opens the door for other colours (Vought are beleived to have used ANA 613 Olive Drab and ANA 603 Sea Gray on Corsairs for example. 603 was of course EDSG brought into the US colour standard). 

But the Joint Aircraft Committee on Standardisation did not agree its rationalisation of colours for USAAF, USN and US-built aircraft for the UK, with the associated acceptance of equivalent colours, until May 1942, long after the last of the UK's Chesapeakes had been delivered.  Agreed it says "or equivalents" on the scheme diagram but in those peacetime years (at least in the US) I suspect "or equivalent" meant "paint by any other manufacturer as long as it looks like the Dupont shades".  Completely agree you comments on Corsair colours though.

 

I must admit that I am surprised by this smoking gun evidence of Chesapeakes being delivered in Temperate Sea Scheme: in photographs the contrast regularly looks too great for TSS.

[Seahawk]

45 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

They were intended for use on escort carriers and the main problem seems to have been that they could not take off in a short distance with a useful load.

They were apparently colloquially known as Cheesecakes in the FAA.

John Godley (Lord Kilbracken) was a member of 811 and describes his experiences of the Chesapeake in Bring Back My Stringbag.  His reaction to the decision that 811 would re-equip with Swordfish and that Chesapeakes were suitable only for second line duties:

 

"Jesus, what a comedown.  Seemed a totally incredible decision.  The verdict had been that our sweethearts were underpowered, would too often be unable to carry an adequate load from a small carrier.  But the power of the Twin Wasp Junior, and all the performance data, had been well known before we started.  Our exhaustive 3-month trials had shown no defects, drawbacks, shortcomings.  It seemed totally inexplicable, a perverse step backward to what we'd thought temps perdu, as though my Lords were determined at all costs that navy pilots should never have a halfway modern kite to fly."

 

Yes, he refers to it on occasion as the Cheesecake.

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

evidence of Chesapeakes being delivered in Temperate Sea Scheme

This is good support for them having a cockpit colour other than blue - Dull Dark Green does seem reasonable.

 

There is a previous discussion here (but nothing about interiors)

 

[nsmekanik]

Thank you all for your replies, very informative and much appreciated.

[Dave Fleming]

11 hours ago, Seahawk said:

I must admit that I am surprised by this smoking gun evidence of Chesapeakes being delivered in Temperate Sea Scheme: in photographs the contrast regularly looks too great for TSS.

 

I would agree, I'd always thought it looked  like Temperate Land, although the picture above of one next to a Boston does show a contrast (assuming it wasn't repainted on delivery)

 

There are tantalising elements on the wreck on Arran - although modern photos show it's weathered a lot. Must see if I can find some older photographs . Need to get up there one day. I know some lads who visited it in the 70s, but didn't have a camera.

 

 

http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/scotland/al941.html

 

https://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/crash_sites/scotland/vought-chesapeake-al941-gleann-diomhan/

Edited February 28, 2020 by Dave Fleming

[Troy Smith]

On 26/02/2020 at 22:44, Plastimic said:

 

I think I read somewhere they used Hawker Hurricane armored seats

Hurricane seats were not armoured,  they had an armour fitted to the rear bulkhead.

 

Fascinating thread,  I'm going to put in @  notifications for @Dana Bell and @Tailspin Turtle   as they maybe able to add some info, and even if not, think it would be of interest to them anyway.

[Tailspin Turtle]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Hurricane seats were not armoured,  they had an armour fitted to the rear bulkhead.

 

Fascinating thread,  I'm going to put in @  notifications for @Dana Bell and @Tailspin Turtle   as they maybe able to add some info, and even if not, think it would be of interest to them anyway.

I got nothing, but you’re right, it is an interesting thread to me. Thanks.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Tailspin Turtle

[Dave Fleming]

This one is a Vought image, but seems to show just a single upper surface. US Navy Blue-Gray? (Is it even a Chesapeake?)

[Dave Fleming]

If I saw this one, with no background info, I'd say it looked grey green.

 

Couple of interesting pics:
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/392271573156_/Royal-Navy-Vought-Chesapeake-AL909-Original-Ministry-Photo.jpg

 

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/392540975302_/RAF-Vought-Chesapeake-AL909-Original-Air-Ministry-Photo.jpg

[Plastimic]

Does anyone have an info on interior colour or what these armoured seats and plating looked like? The exterior has been discussed quite a lot. I think if anyone could get info on Burtonwood and their info on the Chesapeake that would resolve a lot of these questions.