BoB cannon spitfire wing query

[Ralph]

Hallo all,

Am contemplating doing a cannon armed 19 sqn Spitfire from August 1940 using a 1/72 Spitfire Mk VB kit, but then started to wonder. Can I indeed use a VB wing for this? I've not seen a picture, and I don't actually know if:

1) They had any machine guns

2) If there was a bulge for the cannon breech. 

I think the problem with the cannon jamming all of the time was solved with changing the position of the breech, necessitating the bulge in the wing, but like I say, I am a bit hazy. Does anybody have any info on this, or better yet a pic or two?

Cheers, R

[Graham Boak]

The initial ones had no machine guns, and a different (additional?) lower bulge on the wing.  The cannon jamming was solved by changing the feed mechanism, but that didn't change the bulge on the upper wing.  The KP Spitfire comes with this early standard as an option, and a choice of markings which would also do for the rewinged aircraft i.e. as the standard Airfix kit.  So you could have two almost identical aircraft.

[gingerbob]

Note that you'd need to substitute the early-style oil cooler, instead of the Mk.V type.  There have been numerous threads about these cannon-armed Mk.Is, so I recommend a bit of a search.  Or wait until Troy pops in with all the links laid out for you!

[viscount806x]

There's a tantalising little dissertation with images, on the early cannon armed Spitfires in 'Spitfire-The History' (Morgan & Shacklady) which may be of interest and possibly useful.

It seems that that whilst the generally accepted initial Mk.I conversions were without .303s,  fortuitously, one of the conversions still had positions for the outer .303s in place and when so armed, with cannon and 4X.303s, more success was achieved despite cannon stoppages. New wings were built with the additional .303s and this became the 'B' wing. It seems that more than one Mk.I had the .303s eventually but confusingly these and the cannon-only winged a/c all became designated as  'IB'. Serials seem to be elusive however and this would give a modeller some problems regarding accuracy on an individual aircrafts armament fit.

The biggest issue was the eroded performance of the aircraft and this would never be solved until the Merlin 45 came along. The early Mk'IB had to be flown at full power continuously to keep up with the normal .303 armed squadron members.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Graham Boak]

There are a number of serials quoted in Spitfire The History, including the first ones converted from the 2 cannon only wing to the B wing.  Finding the codes might be more difficult.  Early Mk.IBs were later converted to Mk.VB, so you could possible have the same airframe in three different variants.  There is at least one very common photo of one of these as a Mk.VB, at times miscaptioned.  The AZ kit does allow for at least one of these early cannon-armed aircraft.

[MACALAIN]

19 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

There are a number of serials quoted in Spitfire The History, including the first ones converted from the 2 cannon only wing to the B wing.  Finding the codes might be more difficult.  Early Mk.IBs were later converted to Mk.VB, so you could possible have the same airframe in three different variants.  There is at least one very common photo of one of these as a Mk.VB, at times miscaptioned.  The AZ kit does allow for at least one of these early cannon-armed aircraft.

 

On 23/02/2020 at 22:54, Ralph said:

Hallo all,

Am contemplating doing a cannon armed 19 sqn Spitfire from August 1940 using a 1/72 Spitfire Mk VB kit, but then started to wonder. Can I indeed use a VB wing for this? I've not seen a picture, and I don't actually know if:

1) They had any machine guns

2) If there was a bulge for the cannon breech. 

I think the problem with the cannon jamming all of the time was solved with changing the position of the breech, necessitating the bulge in the wing, but like I say, I am a bit hazy. Does anybody have any info on this, or better yet a pic or two?

Cheers, R

Use the KP kit, he is easier to build then the AZ, and you have all the parts in the box (there is a Mk Ib box)

 

Alain 

[Graham Boak]

KP is part of the AZ family.  The specific kit I was referring to is indeed the KP Mk.1B.

[MACALAIN]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

KP is part of the AZ family.  The specific kit I was referring to is indeed the KP Mk.1B.

completely agree with you REF KPM 0055

[AltcarBoB]

Page 74 para 3 of The Spitfire Story by Alfred Price has this to say about the first cannon installation.

 

The action showed the Hispano was a very effective weapon when it worked. The trouble was that it was no where near reliable enough. Quite apart from the fact the mounting was not sufficently rigid, the cannons were canted on their sides in the Spitfire and this gave rise to problems with ejecting the belt links and cartridge cases

 

IMG_20200226_202759020 by Stuart, on Flickr

[MACALAIN]

6 hours ago, AltcarBoB said:

Page 74 para 3 of The Spitfire Story by Alfred Price has this to say about the first cannon installation.

 

The action showed the Hispano was a very effective weapon when it worked. The trouble was that it was no where near reliable enough. Quite apart from the fact the mounting was not sufficently rigid, the cannons were canted on their sides in the Spitfire and this gave rise to problems with ejecting the belt links and cartridge cases

 

IMG_20200226_202759020 by Stuart, on Flickr

Nice info

[Smithy]

Subsequent to the photo of one of the prototypes posted by AltcarBoB above, there is only one known photo of the first operational Spitfire Ibs with 19 Sqn. It was taken at Fowlmere and I'll post it this evening when I can scan it.

[Smithy]

Here you go, as promised the only known photo of one of the first operational Ibs serving with 19 Sqn. The photo was taken at Fowlmere probably mid to late August. Unfortunately no serial number or coding is visible but of interest is the spinner tip which has been painted a light colour.

 

[Troy Smith]

27 minutes ago, Smithy said:

but of interest is the spinner tip which has been painted a light colour.

Possibly the spinner body is not black either,  compared to the blades.   Not seen this before.  Thanks

[Smithy]

6 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Possibly the spinner body is not black either,  compared to the blades.   Not seen this before.  Thanks

 

Pleased you liked it Troy. As for the spinner, as you probably know 19 Sqn played around with different colours on them during 1940. This is interesting because of the two tone nature to it. Sadly it's the only photo of a 19 Sqn Ib from the 3 or so weeks they had them.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Smithy
Typo