Phantome Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) Hello Britmodeller, Continuing my series of color and paint guides, here's the long-awaited RAF post-war guide featuring all major RAF color schemes from the end of WW2 until today. I actually finished this weeks ago but kept forgetting to post it, but no more delays! A few notes: 1) Unlike the WW2 guide, it is unfortunate that there is no authoritative single reference for post-war RAF colors. This means all the info has been taken from disparate sources including this forum, Paul Lucas articles, and visual evidence (mostly from the excellent Air Britain photo archive). Where possible I have tried to add specific references to camouflage guidelines but in many cases this has not been possible. And especially for everything post-1970s it has been almost entirely visual evidence. 2) I realized there was a ton of contradictory evidence on interior and cockpit colors. It has been quite enlightening to actually do research on this and realize that there's a lot of erroneous information out there on forums like this that is given as authoritative despite giving no backing evidence. Unlike the USAF, RAF interior colors are VERY complicated as there is no apparent standard even though it's the same 4-5 colors used throughout. I am more than happy to be corrected on this but some of the main things that I found from looking at countless aircraft walkarounds that seems to contradict the conventional wisdom: - Dark Admiralty Gray (the most common RAF cockpit color from the Lightning onward) is NOTHING like FS 36231 which is often given as an equivalent. DAG is much darker and has a clear blue tint to it. I would not recommend using FS 36231 as an equivalent at all if you are even remotely concerned about color accuracy. It doesn't help that sites like e-Paint show DAG and 36231 as very similar. Although I do not have a copy of BS 381C, I did pick up the Munsell values from an Indian Standards document (there's a lot of overlap in British and Indian colors, unsurprisingly) and these are far closer to what is seen on photos. (Edit: there might be confusion with Dark Camouflage Grey which is in fact, nearly identical to FS 36231 but this is not an interior color) - There is widespread use of Light Admiralty Grey as an interior color from the 1960s onward. This is a light blue-grey very similar to RLM 76. This has often confused for a 'light grey' and I have seen many references to Light Aircraft Grey 627 and Light Grey BS 631 yet I have very little reason to think these have even been used for this purpose (LAG on some late Hunters after they switched from silver undersides). Neither 627 or 631 by any standard of the imagination have a blue hue in them which is obvious on all RAF 'light grey' interiors. RAF Tornados also seem to use Light Admiralty Grey though not Luftwaffe ones which use a more neutral light grey which I suspect is Lichtgrau 7035 (also used on both RAF and Lw Typhoons). Interestingly, LAG is also very similar to the ubiquitous Soviet/Russian Blue-Grey used for interiors. - There has also been some confusion over the correct cockpit color on RAF Tornados: it appears both FS 36231 AND Dark Admiralty Grey are used. There is an excellent walkaround on this forum posted by Julien that shows clear evidence of DAG. There are plenty of other ones that show FS 36231. I repeat: these two colors look nothing alike and they are impossible to confuse. There also does not appear to be any pattern on when either of the two are used, as both are seen on GR.1s, GR.4s, and F.3s. This was quite a shocker to me as I had assumed that Tornados, like most multi-national designs used FS 36231. Interestingly, the Harrier II uses FS 36231, not DAG like first gen Harriers. - The one aircraft that does have a very confusing cockpit color is the Nimrod (at least some of them), and I do think it is possibly BS 627. Anyone with authoritative info is more than welcome to chip in on this debate! Anyway, I hope this is useful and by all means, any corrections are most welcome! Finally, a bit thank you to the BM community in general, as there was a lot of useful info from some of you in the couple of threads that I started in preparation for this. I intend to pop over to Kew at some point in the near future now that I'm back in London and hopefully get definitive info on AMOs and such as there are still a lot of loose threads particularly in that 1945-1955 period when there were tons of changes. http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rafmod Edited February 13, 2020 by Phantome 10 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Excellent stuff, thanks for posting! Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmatthewbacon Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Another very useful piece of work... thank you! best, M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Phantome said: Hello Britmodeller, - Dark Admiralty Gray (the most common RAF cockpit color from the Lightning onward) is NOTHING like FS 36231 which is often given as an equivalent. DAG is much darker and has a clear blue tint to it. I would not recommend using FS 36231 as an equivalent at all if you are even remotely concerned about color accuracy. It doesn't help that sites like e-Paint show DAG and 36231 as very similar. Although I do not have a copy of BS 361, I did pick up the Munsell values from an Indian Standards document (there's a lot of overlap in British and Indian colors, unsurprisingly) and these are far closer to what is seen on photos. (Edit: there might be confusion with Dark Camouflage Grey which is in fact, nearly identical to FS 36231 but this is not an interior color) - There is widespread use of Light Admiralty Grey as an interior color from the 1960s onward. This is a light blue-grey very similar to RLM 76. This has often confused for a 'light grey' and I have seen many references to Light Aircraft Grey 627 and Light Grey BS 631 yet I have very little reason to think these have even been used for this purpose (LAG on some late Hunters after they switched from silver undersides). Neither 627 or 631 by any standard of the imagination have a blue hue in them which is obvious on all RAF 'light grey' interiors. RAF Tornados also seem to use Light Admiralty Grey though not Luftwaffe ones which use a more neutral light grey which I suspect is Lichtgrau 7035 (also used on both RAF and Lw Typhoons). Interestingly, LAG is also very similar to the ubiquitous Soviet/Russian Blue-Grey used for interiors Nice work, I'll bet that took you a while! I'd be interested in evidence of Light Admiralty Grey as a cockpit colour - certainly all the colour scheme documentation I've seen refers to Dark Admiralty Grey. That does tend to both fade, and appear lighter due to flash/over exposure on many pictures. Some notes which might be useful, or worthy of debate! - The light green on the underside of early RAF Harriers was referred to as 'Medium Green' on all the manufacturers drawings. (Same colour used on later Wessexes and Pumas) (Lichen, Spruce and Chive were all trade names for various manufacturers versions of BS4800 12B25) - All the internal colours on Harrier IIs were given in FS terms - this is because parts were made in the UK and US, and the McAir documents were the primary ones (Cockpits were US built). - Undercarraige colours are usually not on the manufacturers drawings I've seen (as they are sub compnents) but the one I have seen referred to 631 Light Grey but I can see 697 being valid. My hawk expert said Hawk u/c legs were Light Aircraft Grey (and he built the things) - A small number (possibly only one or two) Tornado GR1Bs were painted in overall Dark Camouflage Grey - trials showed that these were too light on top, so Dark Sea Grey was added - the ARTF 'pink' for Desert Storm was made to FS 30279. All the ARTF paints were made to existing colour standards (as you mention Op Warden used Camouflage Grey)- there is a possibility the later Flashman trial used BS380 - also, notice how quickly parts of it weather! - Buccaneers started to appear in an overall grey scheme around 1989/90 (Pre Gulf war) w=in a scheme which consisted of Medium Sea Grey uppers with lower surfaces in Light aircraft Grey - a number of other aircraft also had this scheme (HS125s, Andover) - Not sure the later green Hrcules were NATO Green - my info was that they are BS641 Dark Green, but that the modern formula looks lighter in bright sunshine (and fades) Let debate commence!! Edited February 13, 2020 by Dave Fleming 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said: Nice work, I'll bet that took you a while! I'd be interested in evidence of Light Admiralty Grey as a cockpit colour - certainly all the colour scheme documentation I've seen refers to Dark Admiralty Grey. That does tend to both fade, and appear lighter due to flash/over exposure on many pictures. Some notes which might be useful, or worthy of debate! - The light green on the underside of early RAF Harriers was referred to as 'Medium Green' on all the manufacturers drawings. When it was added to BS381C I (Same colour used on later Wessexes and Pumas) (Lichen, Spruce and Chive were all trade names for various manufacturers versions of BS4800 12B25) - All the internal colours on Harrier IIs were given in FS terms - this is because parts were made in the UK and US, and the McAir documents were the primary ones (Cockpits were US built). - Undercarraige colours are usually not on the manufacturers drawings I've seen (as they are sub compnents) but the one I have seen referred to 631 Light Grey but I can see 697 being valid. My hawk expert said Hawk u/c legs were Light Aircraft Grey (and he built the things) - A small number (possibly only one or two) Tornado GR1Bs were painted in overall Dark Camouflage Grey - trials showed that these were too light on top, so Dark Sea Grey was added - the ARTF 'pink' for Desert Storm was made to FS 30279. All the ARTF paints were made to existing colour standards (as you mention Op Warden used Camouflage Grey)- there is a possibility the later Flashman trial used BS380 - also, notice how quickly parts of it weather! - Buccaneers started to appear in an overall grey scheme around 1989/90 (Pre Gulf war) w=in a scheme which consisted of Medium Sea Grey uppers with lower surfaces in Light aircraft Grey - a number of other aircraft also had this scheme (HS125s, Andover) - Not sure the later green Hrcules were NATO Green - my info was that they are BS641 Dark Green, but that the modern formula looks lighter in bright sunshine (and fades) Let debate commence!! Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant LAdmG as an interior (wheel well, landing gear, etc) as opposed to a cockpit color. There is definitely no evidence of LAdmG ever used as a cockpit color As for the Harrier II, I suspected as such! It definitely breaks with the GR1/GR3 in that even the RAF versions has white interiors and landing gear It is indeed unfortunate that I did not come across any documentation that confirmed LAdmG rather than say, LAG or LG for undersides. Indeed LG does have a blue-greenish hue so I was perhaps exaggerating a bit when I said there is no way it couldn't be. I'm more than happy to change my conclusions if anyone comes up with conclusive, definitive evidence. From the modeler's perspective, the unfortunate thing is that neither color is widely available. 😕 I am planning to possibly add a Buccaneer section later on, I deliberately did not include short-lived schemes that were only seen on one aircraft. I mean... Squirrel Grey Thanks for the comments, if you do ever come across any documentation to definitely sort out these debate, do send it my way Edited February 13, 2020 by Phantome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Again a great effort to go with your WW2 listings. Will you cover the FAA with similar listings? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveJL Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Great reference, thank you for taking the time to assemble and produce! Just one thing; Mr Paint do have a 'Camouflage Grey' (BS626) in their line up - MRP 373. I notice it is missing from your Air Defence Scheme chart. Again, thank you for posting! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) Hi Phantome, Thanks very much for your researches. Just one point of information though: e-paint.co.uk gives FS 36152 as virtually indistinguishable from BS361C:632 Dark Admiralty Grey. Edited February 13, 2020 by JosephLalor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougC Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Thank you for posting this. It must have taken you ages but it will save countless numbers of us so much time spent on research ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadbear Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Thanks for the excellent work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 12 hours ago, Dave Fleming said: - the ARTF 'pink' for Desert Storm was made to FS 30279. All the ARTF paints were made to existing colour standards (as you mention Op Warden used Camouflage Grey)- there is a possibility the later Flashman trial used BS380 - also, notice how quickly parts of it weather! That one's a new one on me, love it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Thank you for compiling this work (and others) into something that is easy to understand. Now bookmarked. Regards Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, 71chally said: That one's a new one on me, love it! You'll like this too then. This was the sister aircraft, but it went tech and didn't go to the US for trials 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
politicni komisar Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 https://mrpaint.sk/farby/lietadla/RAF The menu of the best RAF colors is also available with the latest modern and current colors. Above all, they are nice when applied with airbrush and the application is perfect.. P.k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goggsy Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 That’s brilliant, thanks for putting it together. I’ve always found the IPMS Stockholm guides a bit dodgy for RAF aircraft so it’s great to have a more accurate alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 I really appreciate the effort putting this together. A great reference all in one place! Thank you. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zed Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 This is certainly a fantastic piece of work, thanks for your effort. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 This is what the AP has to say on cockpit colour, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, canberra kid said: This is what the AP has to say on cockpit colour, Interesting reading. It seems to contradict the Dark Admiralty Grey as a cockpit colour. Is this UK general, or for a specific aircraft? Cheers, Andre Edited March 5, 2020 by Hook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 Wow, that's very interesting. However, I can't seem to find any reference to that paint aside from mentions of "Coroguard" (different spelling) which is apparently the grey in the middle of airliner wings. It is a much lighter grey. Also, the cockpit color does not look at all like Medium Sea Grey. It's much closer to Dark Sea Grey but MSG is way too light. If anyone can find a sample of Corogard EC843, please link! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Hook said: Interesting reading. It seems to contradict the Dark Admiralty Grey as a cockpit colour. Is this UK general, or for a specific aircraft? Cheers, Andre Andre, I would think this would apply to all Phantoms UK and US? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I don;t know if this helps or hinders, but this is the USN take on the subject. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighter Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 As I remember our FGR 2's on 17 Sqdn. did not have coroguard wing and intake leading edges, The camouflage on the upper wings continued around and under the wing leading edge by about 4 - 5 ". the intake edges were dark grey, almost the same as the camo, but a more matt finish. Also, a lot of the Sargent Fletcher wing tanks had their noses painted in a similar grey. HTH. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichG Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 As others have said brilliant work @Phantome. I hope you don't mind me pointing out a typo/error I spotted in the Transports (1945 - 1996) section: "This consisted of a topside aluminum finish with white undersides." Should be the other way round i.e. "Topside white with aluminum finish undersides" Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurrantBunbury Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 A brilliant resource. Thank you. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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