DMC Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share Posted February 18, 2020 Clearly not black, at least on this Camel. First clear photo i’ve found where the wires weren’t overshadowed by the upper wing.and looking black. Some interesting replays to my question and I’ve learned a thing or two. Thanks everyone. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazman Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 I suspect there's something funny going on with the greyscale in that picture unless it's an odd roundel with white in the middle. I'm also not convinced by the suggestion that RFC wires were stainless steel as stainless steel was a very new thing in RFC days. On my current build I've compromised by going for grey; the observer can use their imagination to decide whether that's dirty black or dirty metal! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 The roundel is the United States Air Service - USAS = red/blue/white. The USAS used a variety of British and French built aircraft, including Camels and SE5A The two men are wearing the USAS side-cap Stainless steel was invented in Germany in 1913 afair 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptmvarsityfan Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Rigging wires were definitely not black, but they appear so in many photographs, as mentioned above depending on light conditions, background etc. However in small scale black can give a more pleasing effect. Looking at colour photos of the Bulldog in the RAF museum sometimes the wires appear black, in other images they are silver depending on the angle of the photograph. They appear black against the highly polished fuselage. Cheers, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Somewhere in my files I believe I have a copy of instructions that flying wires were to be painted the same colour as the PC linen colour, ie, dark green for PC10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 As Melvyn has already pointed out by the mid to late war period, British aircraft were using Rafwire of various thickness (first to use it was the BE2c). With its introduction it was made out of stainless steel and was unpainted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) Lots (most?) RAF wires were actually finished in black or Battleship/Service grey or a PC10 enamel paint equivalent. You can see it is in WW1 photos and read about it in manufacturers drawings/instructions etc. Museums and replicas/reproductions tend to use shiny unpainted steel. Edited February 19, 2020 by wmcgill flesh out comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, wmcgill said: Many examples exist of black RAF wires in WW1 photos. Museums and replicas/reproductions not so much. That has to do with the photo and lighting conditions in it and the angle in relation to that in which it was taken, and not the actual colour of Rafwire. Rafwires are and always were steel coloured and not painted black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Smithy said: That has to do with the photo and lighting conditions in it and the angle in relation to that in which it was taken, and not the actual colour of Rafwire. Rafwires are and always were steel coloured and not painted black. No. Painted RAF wires in WW1 are a real thing. Most photos are not good enough to be able to tell. But some are. Also the manufacturer's (and RFC) instructions demand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, wmcgill said: No. Painted RAF wires in WW1 are a real thing. Most photos are not good enough to be able to tell. But some are. Also the manufacturer's (and RFC) instructions demand it. Please post a specific document from the War Office prescribing that Rafwires on operational aircraft be painted black. Rafwires (and the earlier Bruntonised wires) were apart from an initial trial with duralumin, galvanised steel and later stainless, and all unpainted. 5 minutes ago, wmcgill said: The wires you have posted there are not black but unsurprisingly steel. Edited February 19, 2020 by Smithy Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 22 minutes ago, Smithy said: Please post a specific document from the War Office prescribing that Rafwires on operational aircraft be painted black. Rafwires (and the earlier Bruntonised wires) were apart from an initial trial with duralumin, galvanised steel and later stainless, and all unpainted. The wires you have posted there are not black but unsurprisingly steel. No. They are grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 The Wingnuts website is a good source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Just now, wmcgill said: No. They are grey. Yes because they are steel and not because they are painted any particular shade that you said they were above: black; grey; PC10 (for a start why would you paint a steel wire with a cellulose dope)... 46 minutes ago, wmcgill said: Lots (most?) RAF wires were actually finished in black or Battleship/Service grey or a PC10 enamel paint equivalent. You can see it is in WW1 photos and read about it in manufacturers drawings/instructions etc. Museums and replicas/reproductions tend to use shiny unpainted steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Apparently even the Germans were known to paint their rigging from time to time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, wmcgill said: The Wingnuts website is a good source. Yes and once again all wonderful photos of plain, unpainted steel Rafwires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Smithy said: Yes because they are steel and not because they are painted any particular shade that you said they were above: black; grey; PC10 (for a start why would you paint a steel wire with a cellulose dope)... Please read what I wrote "PC10 enamel paint equivalent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Smithy said: Yes and once again all wonderful photos of plain, unpainted steel Rafwires. I think if you slow down and really compare the colour of the"unpainted steel Rafwires" with the colour of the unpainted steel ties you will see they are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, wmcgill said: Apparently even the Germans were known to paint their rigging from time to time... Yes but the thread relates to British wires. And once again please post a document from the War Office or any British aircraft manufacturer such as the RAF specifying that Rafwires were to be painted seeing as you state above that this was the case. Edited February 19, 2020 by Smithy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, wmcgill said: I think if you slow down and really compare the colour of the"unpainted steel Rafwires" with the colour of the unpainted steel ties you will see they are different. And once again the difference is either from lighting, some wires are older with newer replacement ones being shinier, and even in some cases with cross bracing the wires have dirtied from oil, exhaust and cordite gases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, Smithy said: Yes but the thread relates to British wires. And once again please post a document from the War Office or any British aircraft manufacturer such as the RAF specifying that Rafwires were to be painted seeing as you state above that this was the case. This is all I can find right now. Sopwith document instructing RAF wires to be painted service grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, wmcgill said: This is all I can find right now. Sopwith document instructing RAF wires to be painted service grey. That is a post war document and not from WWI which is what we are discussing. As I have been saying from the start, during WWI - the time in question -Rafwires were unpainted, hence their steel colour. Edited February 19, 2020 by Smithy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmcgill Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 If only people could open their eyes (and their minds) to what is visible in the good photos. There are literally some dark wires that are heavily worn/chipped back to bare metal. If you insist on a smoking gun document then we'll just have to wait and see if Black Knight finds their references before I do. Conversely, do documents exist proving they were always to be left unpainted? These were warplanes first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 With all due respect you have been saying that wires were painted black, grey, a colour approximating PC10 and asserting that all of this was because "the manufacturer's (and RFC) instructions demand it" whilst presenting no shred of documentary evidence for this. Your assumption of looking at the photos merely demonstrates what I have mentioned and tried to explain, that the appearance of the wires changes due to how they were photographed, in what lighting conditions, not to mention the variation in the wires themselves due to age, dirt and grime from wartime flying. It's really quite simple, Rafwire and Bruntonised wire during WWI was steel coloured because that's what it was, just unpainted steel wire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VH-USB Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 I don't know how relevant this would be to British airplanes but I have in my collection a number of old USA Roebling aircraft wire catalogs from the late 1920s through the late 1930s and they list aircraft wires as being available in stainless steel, tinned, and galvanized steel. The stainless was the most expensive but had the best corrosion resistance. The tinned and galvanized had the best fatigue resistance. Fittings for the wires were available in stainless (recommended) as well as galvanized and cadmium plated steel. Tim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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