AltcarBoB Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 For quite a while I have been intrigued by thoughts of a Gloster Gladiator Monoplane a whatif model thrown together by Glosters when a small foreign power asks for a cheap monoplane because all its neighbours are getting shiny new 300mph fighters. Glosters were still building Gladiators so using as many parts from stock as possible a cheap and cheerful mono is produced. Unfortunately War were declared and Ruritania is invaded and cannot pay or receive the order so the Fleet Air Arm takes on the finished planes. Last night I was in my local Hobby Craft to buy some paints and I also picked up an Airfix 1/72 Gladiator for £6.50 in a slightly damaged box. I already have the alternative wing sprue from a Fokker DXXI kit and all I will need to do is scratch build retractable undercarriage though I am thinking of a different engine cowling and maybe lengthening the fuselage to move the cockpit aft of the wing. They also had an Airfix Hurricane kit for £8 which I might get for spares. All I have so far is the Airfix sprues IMG_20200211_123912609 by Stuart, on Flickr and the Fokker wing sprue from an MPM kit IMG_20200211_123927735 by Stuart, on Flickr I must say at first glance I am not too impressed with the Airfix sprues compared to the MPM sprue. The MPM is thinner harder plastic with much better panel detail the Airfix is softer, thicker and feels greasy even after I have washed it. Hopefully the two plastics will talk to each other when solvent is applied. Any suggestions welcome and if anyone has a spare NACA Bristol Mercury cowling from maybe a Bristol Blenheim build I will happily take it off your hands. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share Posted February 11, 2020 🤔 I have been thinking what if I fit a Bristol Hercules engine 🤪 I mean what could possibly go wrong replacing a 900 pound engine with a 1900 pound engine 🤣 the aircraft would land nose first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 So it's going to be a 1938 pylon racer then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklo Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 5 hours ago, AltcarBoB said: I mean what could possibly go wrong replacing a 900 pound engine with a 1900 pound engine Well if they could fit a twin wasp to the p47 or the sabre to the typhoon why not..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Because both types were designed for 2000hp engines? And are a lot bigger and heavier and stronger as a result? Extra fuel, extra cooling, bigger tails... Also heavier armament, because they could. It wasn't a Twin Wasp in the P-47 but a Double Wasp. You just might have got a Twin Wasp into a Gladiator with acceptable changes but it would have been pretty hairy and why bother when you could try a Merlin? It'd still be slower than a Hurricane with even less endurance and half the firepower. Though I suppose they could make the upper wing guns standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Because both types were designed for 2000hp engines? Realistically speaking, I think at take-off power it probably would twist itself off the airframe (or turn it into a pretzel) but I don't think pinpoint accuracy is the name of the game here 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share Posted February 11, 2020 15 minutes ago, alt-92 said: but I don't think pinpoint accuracy is the name of the game here No it won't be pin point accuracy the best I can do is 6 inch nail point accuracy.🤪 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 What about a Bristol Taurus? As it's a what-if, it could be a Taurus that manages to hit 1200+ hp. and had the shaft issues cured. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pritch Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Didn't the real thing use a Bristol Mercury IX? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_F.5/34 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklo Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) Twin wasp double wasp they’re close cousins. Not that up with aero engines but, I suppose my point is that it’s not that unusual to see fighters designed with the biggest (hp wise) engine available. The Merlin would have been the engine if the time, and an in-line engined glad would certainly look different. Edited February 12, 2020 by Marklo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 8 hours ago, Pritch said: Didn't the real thing use a Bristol Mercury IX? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_F.5/34 As far as I can tell the F5/34 didn't have much in common with the Gladiator apart from the designer. I am going to build the fuselage much as real life but add a monoplane wing and possibly Hurricane or scratchbuilt undercarriage. I could use the original Gladiator Dowty sprung wheels and legs just move them to the wing to retract inwards. It's very much going to be designed on the hoof as I build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklo Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) It wouldn’t be uncommon for fighter prototypes of the time to have fixed undercarriage eg the super marine precursor to the spitfire if the gloster lancock among others. Actually the gloster F.5/34 looks very like your build. Edited February 12, 2020 by Marklo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Examples predating the Gladiator and with less powerful engines offering much lower speeds than required. For this timescale, better examples might be the Avia B.35 or Fiat CR.42., but why think about anything so sluggish at this time? The Miles M.20 might have been the last British flying prototype with a fixed undercarriage, but as an emergency design for perilous times not an otherwise serious attempt. The Folland design competing against the Barracuda also had a fixed undercarriage, as did the Supermarine "Dumbo" but that owes rather more to the extreme stringency of the requirements than any sensible reason. Then there was the Ki.115... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) Never realised the Dowty sprung wheel was so clever. I thought it would just be bendy wheelspokes https://images.app.goo.gl/z6tWvUzxQDBT7LKF6 Edited February 13, 2020 by AltcarBoB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklo Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, AltcarBoB said: F5/34 didn't have much in common with the Gladiator apart from the designer True but designers tend to reuse the same concepts eg Folland with the se5, nighthawk, Grebe, gamecock etc there are echoes of the previous in each new design, even though each is not derivative of the earlier design.(if that makes sense) An interesting (but possibly not true) idea is that the hurricane came about as an attempt at a monoplane fury. And totally unrelated (but may actually be true) the predator movies were a result of the comment after making the last Rocky movie that he'd have to fight an alien if they were ever going to make another sequel. Edited February 12, 2020 by Marklo 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 It is absolutely true that the initial project drawings for the Hurricane were titled "Monoplane Fury", but whether the design could fairly be described as "an attempt at a monoplane Fury" could be overstating it a little. More perhaps an attempt to cash in on the fame of its predecessor. The name did not stick for long. The structural methods used for the design were those of all Camm designs of the period, as you (correctly) suggest as a general statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) I have made a start and I am up to the "Oh my god what a mess it will never look any good" stage. I have fixed the wing and need to do a lot of filling to blend the wing inot the fuselage, I perhaps should have fitted the wing further up into the fuselage to make it an easier transition. IMG_20200212_191615779 by Stuart, on Flickr IMG_20200212_191554057 by Stuart, on Flickr IMG_20200212_191602591 by Stuart, on FlickrIMG_20200212_191615779 by Stuart, on FlickrIMG_20200213_132512406 by Stuart, on Flickr Edited February 13, 2020 by AltcarBoB 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) U/C legs looking a bit wonky but they arent glued in place yet IMG_20200213_132605708 by Stuart, on Flickr Still filling all the holes and gaps meant for the top wing fitment IMG_20200213_132518299 by Stuart, on Flickr Edited February 13, 2020 by AltcarBoB 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) I have been thinking a bit more about the back story of my mash up. Let me know what you think. The Royal Navy were rather unwilling to buy the 52 Monoplane Gloster fighters but they were desperate for anything that flew and the Gloster fighters were not wanted by the RAF. There was a thought that they could be used as trainers to get Bi-plane fixed undercarriage pilots used to the newer retractable undercarriage mono-planes. After initial testing the RN realised they had a pretty good fighter on there hands it was 45 mph faster than the Bi-plane Gladiator had 8 x Browning .303s and could turn inside a Hurricane all day. With a new constant speed propeller fitted and the engine modified to take +10psi of boost it could also outclimb a Hurricane below 12,000 feet. It was decided the original name Gladiator Monoplane was too much of a mouthful and could cause confusion. The new name chosen was the Gannet MkI After the losses of carriers and planes in the first 10 months of the year and with the new Fairey Fulmar a distance away from service the Gloster Gannet went into service on RN carriers just in time for service in the Mediteranean. RN pilots found that the new Gannet was superior to the Italian Fiat CR32 and 42s and was more than capable of handling the latest Italian monoplane fighters and bombers. With only 52 aircraft losses to enemy and accidents soon whittled the Gannets down to a handful but for nearly a year they ruled the Mediteranean skies. Edited February 14, 2020 by AltcarBoB Changed name to Gloster Gannet MkI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 To get the filler even when I am forming the wing root I have made a little former out of card. The left hand edge runs up against the fuselage the bottom edge against the wing. I am using Vallejo putty which doesnt like being applied too thick so a first layer is drying and probably need to skim the joint at least twice before its right. IMG_20200213_144822007 by Stuart, on Flickr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 Just ordered a resin Bristol Blenheim propeller from sbs. Getting quite excited about this build now looking for a vacform canopy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 Rudder held on with masking tape, canopy and cowling balanced on. I think its coming together and looks quite P36 ish IMG_20200213_161313589 by Stuart, on Flickr IMG_20200213_161329370 by Stuart, on Flickr IMG_20200213_161322634 by Stuart, on Flickr 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 In side profile, it's got a Re.2000 feel to it. Britain was in negotiations with Italy to buy some. From Wikipedia: British interest[edit] In December 1939, a British commission, led by Lord Hardwick and Air Ministry representatives, arrived in Italy for the purpose of purchasing various pieces of military equipment; aside from items such as marine engines, armaments and light reconnaissance bombers, the delegation sought to procure of around 300 Re.2000s.[14] During January 1940, the Director of Aircraft Contracts confirmed the British order. The German government issued its approval of the sale in March of the same year, but withdrew its approval during the following month.[14] In light of this, the Italian and British governments then decided to complete the contract through the Italian Caproni’s Portuguese subsidiary as to side-step Germany's objection; however, the British order was cancelled as a consequence of Italy's entry into the Second World War on 10 June 1940.[15][16] Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltcarBoB Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 I have always been a bit suspicious of the story of the Re2000 order. It seems to be an internet legend to me I have never seen any documentation from the British government nor from Regiane. Why would Germany okay an order for its enemy to buy fighters and why would Italy even ask for permission. It just doesn't ring true though I am prepared to be amazed if anyone finds documents. Maybe it was an MI6 diversion to cover payment to Italy to try and keep them out of the war. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklo Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) Looks good so far. Reminiscent of many 1930s planes. I've tried Vallejo filler don’t like it at all. I admire your patience, I’d have used milliput as it builds up well and sticks to anything. Edited February 13, 2020 by Marklo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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