SEAC colours - 132 Sqn Spitfire XIV's

[JasonC]

Hi All,

 

At some point I'm hoping to build a Spitfire XIV of 132 Squadron as they appeared when transferred to Hong Kong in September 1945. Luckily there are a fair few photographs (although sadly none in colour).

 

My question concerns the colours these aircraft were likely to have been wearing - either the Day Fighter scheme or repainted DE/DG uppers. I've heard it said that a white serial number is indicative of a DE/DG repaint, which would mean that that the third aircraft (FF*A, RN143?) might be so painted (note this a/c is also lacking a fuselage band). That aircraft also lacks the dark circle behind the fuselage roundel, which Nick Millman suggests is a characteristic of DE/DG Spitfires (thread linked below). Also of note is that while most aircraft are wearing the white ID bands, the one in the foreground is not.

 

Does it therefore seem likely that the Squadron arrived in HK with a mix of camouflage? Any thoughts welcome.

 

The shot of the squadron lined up on HMS Smiter, presumably on arrival:

 

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/SMITER.htm#.Xjlp2vn7RhE

 

There's also a wonderful series of images hosted on the IWM site, with more shots of the squadron aboard Smiter, and deployed to Kai Tak.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?filters[agentString][Royal Air Force%2C 132 Squadron]=on 

 

Nick's previous post:

 

 

regards,

Jason

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

I did post some comments in the thread you have linked, so there's probably no need to repeat here the same information. In any case yes, it is known that Spitfire XIVs in the Far East wore both Day Fighter and Temperate Land schemes (always with Medium Sea Grey undersides). These aircraft were all delivered in DFS but were then supposed to be repainted in Dark Green/Dark Earth once in India. However with the end of the war many aircraft retained the original DFS, complete with Sky band, with only the SEA roundels applied.

A similar thing happened with the white bands: these were supposed to be applied per ACSEA order dated February 1945, however not all aircraft received them as with the end of the war there was no need for them anymore.

Identifying the scheme is relatively easy: aircraft with Sky band and visible repainting of the original ETO roundels retained the original DFS. Aircraft that had no visible sign of the original markings were most likely in TLS and these generally had white serial numbers... although I have a feeling that there may have been aircraft that had their original markings obliterated with both Dark Green and Ocean Grey, as I mentioned in that thread

[EwenS]

3 hours ago, JasonC said:

Hi All,

 

At some point I'm hoping to build a Spitfire XIV of 132 Squadron as they appeared when transferred to Hong Kong in September 1945. Luckily there are a fair few photographs (although sadly none in colour).

 

My question concerns the colours these aircraft were likely to have been wearing - either the Day Fighter scheme or repainted DE/DG uppers. I've heard it said that a white serial number is indicative of a DE/DG repaint, which would mean that that the third aircraft (FF*A, RN143?) might be so painted (note this a/c is also lacking a fuselage band). That aircraft also lacks the dark circle behind the fuselage roundel, which Nick Millman suggests is a characteristic of DE/DG Spitfires (thread linked below). Also of note is that while most aircraft are wearing the white ID bands, the one in the foreground is not.

 

Does it therefore seem likely that the Squadron arrived in HK with a mix of camouflage? Any thoughts welcome.

 

The shot of the squadron lined up on HMS Smiter, presumably on arrival:

 

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/SMITER.htm#.Xjlp2vn7RhE

 

There's also a wonderful series of images hosted on the IWM site, with more shots of the squadron aboard Smiter, and deployed to Kai Tak.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?filters[agentString][Royal Air Force%2C 132 Squadron]=on 

 

Nick's previous post:

 

 

regards,

Jason

 

 

 

There is a note in post #13 of the attached link about AZ models having RN135 with clipped wings.

 

132, 17 and 11 squadrons were scheduled to fly ashore from the escort carriers Smiter (132) and Trumpeter (17 and half of 11) on  D+3 of Operation Zipper in Sept 1945. Tests in July/August revealed that a clipped wing Spitfire XIV took about another 100 feet to take off from a land base. As a result it is almost certain that all the Spitfires belonging to these squadrons that went to Malaya and Hong Kong at the start of Sept 1945 had full span wings. 

 

But, somewhere in my photo library I have a photo of a clipped wing Mark XIV wearing 132 sqn markings being loaded /  unloaded on a lighter purportedly from Smiter at Hong Kong. IIRC I came to the conclusion that it was actually taken in 1946 after 132 was disbanded when the aircraft were sent to Japan for 11 & 17 squadrons. I think that was on Vindex. I’ll check tomorrow.

[EwenS]

Re my above post, here is the photo I was referring to.

 

https://ww2-weapons.com/spitfire-mk-xiv/#jp-carousel-8112

 

This is FF-U which is recorded as being RN187 (I can make out the RN and what appears to be a 7 as the last digit). It's history is here https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/search?serial=rn187&model=&factory=&engine=&notes=

It seems to me that this photo can only have been taken on one of 4 occasions. Loading onto Smiter at Trincomalee 2/9/45, unloading in Hong Kong 15/9/45 (servicability was a worry after the longer than planned sea journey and the fact that 7155 Servicing Unit had been servicing Merlin engined aircraft, so they were not flown off as originally intended), loading on another ship in Hong Kong in 1946 and unloading in Japan shortly thereafter. i know Vindex embarked Spitfires in Hong Kong and took them to Iwakuni, Japan in January 1946. 132 disbanded on 15 April 1946 in Hong Kong so possibly transferred to Japan early as surplus to requirements. I've ruled out the former 2 dates due to the clipped wings for the reason given above.

 

Features to note

1. "E" wing but patches where you would expect there to be gun ports on a "C" wing which look newly painted in comparison with the rest of the paintwork.

2. Are those short baralled MK V cannon as opposed to the long barrelled Mk.II (ref is to a discussion on here about what Spitfires/Seafires got what model)?

3. Original roundels painted over and new small roundels painted on

4. Serial in black and rear fuselage band and spinner appear to be the same colour, suggesting DFS. Paint looks faded probably due to exposure to tropical climate.

5. SEAC white fin and tailplanebands (but not extending to rudder/elevator as permitted). But no wing bands.

6. Aileron & elevator locks fitted.

 

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

48 minutes ago, EwenS said:

I've ruled out the former 2 dates due to the clipped wings for the reason given above.

A thought on your clipped wings, Ewen - Are they clipped, or have they just been removed?

Standard spitfire wingtips were separate items and were relatively easy to remove, looking at the photo you link to, the port wing tip looks to me to have been removed and the wing end taped over. In particular, notice the light strip at the end of the wing that projects fore and aft of the LE and TE slightly, and is perpendicular to the flight line at it's forward and aft edge, not faired into the wing. I suspect this is tape that has been run round the wing end rib to seal it off, and not a clipped wing for flight. Unfortunately the photo has been "clipped" to exclude the closer starboard wing tip, which would have show this in much more detail.

Why remove the tips? Well as you state the photo is taken loading/unloading to/from a ship where presuambly space was critical, or access through a hatch for the full span wing was too tight. Removing the tips would give a reduction in span of about 4.5 feet which might have made shipping much easier?

Why has the other aircraft in the photo got the tip fitted? Maybe only some tips needed removing due to stowage position? Note there is a faint lighter line where the tip is joined on the other aircraft, has this been removed and refitted at some point? The line looks more like that defining the removable canon access panels on the wing than the fixed panel lines which are very faint and darker.

[Gwart]

 

You can see the head armour has been removed and placed behind the seat bulkhead.

Shane.

[Dave Swindell]

Thanks for posting the full picture Shane. The stbd wingtip is a clipped tip with nav light included, and the end of the wing and tip have been painted / overpainted, however I still think the port tip is removed - there doesn't appear to be any overpainting of the outboard end of the wing proper. Conversion in progress?

The IWM caption for the photo is "Ground staff prepare a Spitfire XIVE, newly off-loaded from the carrier HMS VINDEX at Iwakuni, Japan."

[gingerbob]

5 hours ago, EwenS said:

Features to note

1. "E" wing but patches where you would expect there to be gun ports on a "C" wing which look newly painted in comparison with the rest of the paintwork.

2. Are those short baralled MK V cannon as opposed to the long barrelled Mk.II (ref is to a discussion on here about what Spitfires/Seafires got what model)?

3. Original roundels painted over and new small roundels painted on

4. Serial in black and rear fuselage band and spinner appear to be the same colour, suggesting DFS. Paint looks faded probably due to exposure to tropical climate.

Comments:

1. The XIVe wing structurally still had the gun bays, etc.  I think sometimes "solid" plugs were used, but other times the usual patches (perhaps the plugs were lost?)

2. No, the outer position has the cannon set further back, so it looks rather like the Mk.V cannon fitted to the inner position (as in some Seafires)

3&4. agree these suggest "day fighter" scheme.

 

I tried zooming in, and still couldn't convince myself that there was a (stub) wingtip on the port side, so Dave may be right.

Edited February 6, 2020 by gingerbob

[Denford]

4 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Thanks for posting the full picture Shane. The stbd wingtip is a clipped tip with nav light included,.....

Without going too much 'off thread' I'm hoping that the forthcoming Airfix Vc, beside being the Vc to end all Vc's, will have clear wing-tip parts as was, I think, done with the Buccaneer.

[tonyot]

You can see on most of these Spit`s where the larger European style roundels and the yellow wing leading edges have been painted out and along with the presence of Sky trim this all indicates the DFS. 

FF-A could possibly be wearing a TLS finish,..... it has white serials and no sign of overpainted roundels

 

Cheers,

          Tony 

[JasonC]

Thanks everyone for the various thoughts on the subject. It does at least look as if both camouflage schemes might be valid options.

 

J.

[EwenS]

I've been taking advantage of the free downloads from the National Archives to grab some of the RAF squadron ORBs for the Far East squadrons. While browsing that for 11 Sqn I came across the following entry:-

 

"21/8/45 - Squadron aircraft were painted in part, and the Squadron Crest imposed on the starboad side of the fuselage. Both flights had the emblem painted in yellow, "A" Flight with a back edging, "B" Flight with red."

 

9 aircraft were then put aboard HMS Trumpeter at China Bay, Trincomalee on 31/8/45. The old Profile 246 Supermarine Spitfire Mks.XIV & XVIII has some photos of them being launched from that ship a few days later. Only one serial is visible on a rather poor quality photo - NH748/F from A Flight. The squadron badge is starboard side under the engine exhausts. Serial is in white and it has a fin band in white. Spinner and code letter also appear white. I can't make up my mind if the fuselage roundel has been crudely reduced in size like 132 sqn machines or whether there has been greater repainting on the fuselage around the area. There is also a photo of MV294/D taken in Oct 1945. White fin, tail & wing bands and spinner and serial. This time the camoflage has been neatly repainted around the fuselage roundel. In another photo MV357/M and MV380/J have white serials but NH875/G and ?????/N have retained the sky band.

[Bedders]

On 2/6/2020 at 12:13 PM, Gwart said:

You can see the head armour has been removed and placed behind the seat bulkhead.

Really interesting observation. I thought that the head armour sometimes seen inside the aft section of the canopy was in addition to the head armour behind the seat. But clearly not from that photo. I wonder why it was moved: better visibility maybe? And what impact on CoG: better? (to compensate for the weighty Griffon), or worse?

 

Justin

Edited May 17, 2020 by Bedders