So what's actually wrong with Special Hobby's Spitfire XII?

[Vlad]

Title could just as easily be "persuade me not to buy one" 🤣

 

It seems there's no "perfect" Spitfire XII in any scale, and although I'm usually a 1/72 builder I'm willing to make exceptions for certain trypes I like enough. So I got looking at the Special Hobby 1/48 kit as basically the only option. But when I read about it there are always comments that it's not right in shape, the wings are in the wrong place or some dimensions are wrong, never with a clear visual comparison though! I'm left looking at pictures of the kit thinking "well it looks right" but can't shake the feeling it isn't based on what I've read. This isn't helped by the fact I don't know if a particular built up kit I've found online has had surgery done on it to fix issues.

 

Can someone please provide a definitive summary of the shape/dimension/accuracy issues?

 

Thanks!

Edited February 4, 2020 by Vlad

[RJP]

I'm not sure there is anything to be concerned about, at least based on on -line reviews including one right here:

 

 

 

Questions like this always make my on-line order finger twitch.  😊

Edited February 4, 2020 by RJP

[Work In Progress]

The relationship between position of wing and position of cockpit is wrong, as it is for the Special Hobby Vc from which it is derived. 

It's all in this thread, which is mostly about the Airfix kit but gets to the Special Hobby at the end

However, if it looks okay to you by all means build one. It doesn't matter at all if it doesnt' bother you when you look at it. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Work In Progress

[alt-92]

I found I could live with the 1mm 'fatal flaws'.

So I'm building mine without surgery.

[Bruce Archer]

Hi!

    The flaws in the Special Hobby kit are mainly in the rear fuselage. The length is short by 1.5mm, which by itself is really not noticeable. But the wing is 2mm too far back and when added to the  1.5 mm fuselage shortness  the whole "look" of the kit off, almost as if it was rear ended.

     I will be the first one to admit I am anal about Spitfires, but there are those who can live with the faults, and that is fine, build what you want how you want.

Bruce

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Archer said:

The flaws in the Special Hobby kit are mainly in the rear fuselage. The length is short by 1.5mm, which by itself is really not noticeable. But the wing is 2mm too far back and when added to the  1.5 mm fuselage shortness  the whole "look" of the kit off, almost as if it was rear ended.

 

If this bother s you, the fix is a couple of splices.

3 hours ago, Vlad said:

But when I read about it there are always comments that it's not right in shape, the wings are in the wrong place or some dimensions are wrong, never with a clear visual comparison though!

Does the below help?  this is the SH Searfire III next to an Airfix Vb,  (the rudder to firewall are the same length on all Spitfires except perhaps the 22/24) so this applies to the SH XII

 

Airfix vs SH cut fillet align IMG_0450 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

the front splice will move the wing forward, and add the length missing, and the other in front of the tail.  Do this an it's now the right length, and just a little trim at the rear of the wing fillet.  look at the part behind the white strip.  I laid this out carefully on the cutting mat so the horizontal and vertical lines are aligned.  

I used Evergreen plastic strip for the front splice,  as it's already square and makes adding the length easy.  I'll search up the thread with more details if you need.

 

The Sh kits get a lot of bad press,  I have carefully compared most of the 1/48th kits,  with know dimensions and reputable plans.  There's reams  of internet tosh about Spitfie kits, just hard sorting through it.  The Sh XII kit has the above faults, the linked thread discusses the Airfix XII faults, there are a lot more

HTH

[Vlad]

Aha, got it! Thanks Troy, that's exactly what I needed to see. Now to decide if I can ignore it.

[VMA131Marine]

Seems like another option would be grafting the Special Hobby wing onto the Airfix fuselage for a Vc and the Merlin Seafire variants. The Airfix Mk.XII fuselage is supposed to be a misshapen mess so modifying the SH fuse as indicated would seem to be way to go for that variant.

[alt-92]

5 minutes ago, VMA131Marine said:

Airfix fuselage for a Vc

I might be wrong, but seeing as the whole discussion regarding the fuselage focuses on being too deep and the Mk.XII being essentially a Griffon plastered on the front ahead of fr.5 - wouldn't that mean the fuse is too deep for a Mk.V also?

Edited February 4, 2020 by alt-92

[Troy Smith]

42 minutes ago, VMA131Marine said:

Seems like another option would be grafting the Special Hobby wing onto the Airfix fuselage for a Vc and the Merlin Seafire variants. The Airfix Mk.XII fuselage is supposed to be a misshapen mess so modifying the SH fuse as indicated would seem to be way to go for that variant.

 

it's an expensive way.  APART from the fuselage issue, the SH kits are really well detailed, and have included basic etch. 

Despite the above comments,  really truly honestly, if you are not a Spitfire nerd, you won't notice.   If it bugs you, try the fuselage splices,  as cross kitting will bring it's own issues, and the pragmatic approach would be try the correction, if it messes up, then cross kit.

 

I'm going to rant a bit, as I have regularly seen the same old tosh on the SH said, and it's always "oooh, thats horrible, can someone make a new fuselage or can I cross kit"  when the answer is pretty simple, two straight cuts, add length, make good. 

Everything else suggested is as much, or more work, or uses more kits.

 

Honestly,  if you can saw straight,  it's an easy modification, I have some Evergreen strip that was the right size,  and that is all squared up, and you can bend to fit the fuselage.   

And, given that Eduard are doing a Spitfire I, a Spitfire V will not be far behind.

 

37 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

I might be wrong, but seeing as the whole discussion regarding the fuselage focuses on being too deep and the Mk.XII being essentially a Griffon plastered on the front ahead of fr.5 - wouldn't that mean the fuse is too deep for a Mk.V also?

 

Right, to clarify.

 

SH Spitfire family, a little too short, fix is shown above. No depth issue.

 

Airfix new tool Spitfire I/V,  AFAIK, spot on dimensionally. Not based on the Spitfire XII research.

 

Airfix Spitfire XII - older tooling, based on some dodgy plans. 

This fuselage is too deep, but fixable, along with a host of other issues.   From an era when Airfix had not got to grips with what data was good or not. (See 72nd Hurricane IIc, MiG-15 for other examples)

 

 

[alt-92]

2 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Right, to clarify.

 

I know, but that was not the suggestion. Unless I've misunderstood @VMA131Marine 's post and he suggests using an AFX Mk.V fuse to use with the rest.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by alt-92

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

I know, but that was not the suggestion. Unless I've misunderstood @VMA131Marine 's post and he suggests using an AFX Mk.V fuse to use with the rest.

 

You could, theoretically, use an Airfix Mk.V (or Mk.I, same parts) with the Special Hobby Spitfire Vc and Seafire II/III kits, as it's the right length and the same engine cowling.

That is what Russ proposed. 

2 hours ago, VMA131Marine said:

Seems like another option would be grafting the Special Hobby wing onto the Airfix fuselage for a Vc and the Merlin Seafire variants. The Airfix Mk.XII fuselage is supposed to be a misshapen mess so modifying the SH fuse as indicated would seem to be way to go for that variant.

 

He didn't mention using the SH Mk.XII with an Airfix V fuselage, and said modifying the SH XII fuselage would be the way to go.

 

One point about the SH Seafire III fuselage, (the other may have this, but not too hand to check)

it's the only Spitfire kit that has attempted to show the lapped panels on the rear fuselage. Overscale, but a neat touch.

[Work In Progress]

14 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

it's the only Spitfire kit that has attempted to show the lapped panels on the rear fuselage

... apart from the 1/24 Airfix

[Bruce Archer]

Hi Troy,

     Read my last sentence....build what you want, how you want. My post was simply stating fact, each of us has to decide if a certain kit is worth the money, and time which will be invested in it. If a kit has a flaw, the modeler needs to decide to: not buy the kit, build the kit and ignore the flaws, or put forth the effort to repair the flaws.

 

       BTW, the plastic is thick enough on the Airfix Spitfire Mk.XII so you can file and sand the fuselage thinner....which is what I did.

 

Bruce

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, Bruce Archer said:

Hi Troy,

     Read my last sentence....build what you want, how you want. My post was simply stating fact, each of us has to decide if a certain kit is worth the money, and time which will be invested in it. If a kit has a flaw, the modeler needs to decide to: not buy the kit, build the kit and ignore the flaws, or put forth the effort to repair the flaws.

Hi Bruce

I saw the last line,  I was just posting up my suggested method to fix the problem,  as we both agree on the faults. 

 

My apologies if my posting came across in any other way.  You have posted comments before about the SH kits, but not on my fix.    If my fix does not solve the problem, or there is an easier method,  I am interested to know.

 

10 hours ago, Bruce Archer said:

       BTW, the plastic is thick enough on the Airfix Spitfire Mk.XII so you can file and sand the fuselage thinner....which is what I did.

 

The Airfix XII has many bigger issues than just the fuselage depth,  it shares most of the faults the Academy XIV  is pilloried for.   

 

My conclusion was, If you want an accurate 1/48th Spitfire XII, the easiest  way is to fix the SH kit, fixing the Airfix kit requires much more work. 

 

All I am trying to do is cut through some internet fog on these points, and I try to show my findings and suggested solutions,  always interested in feedback and critiques.

 

cheers

T

[mick b]

So just to clarify; the plastic insert shown in the nose is 2mm and the tail 1.5mm? 

 

Agreed, the SH XII is a lovely kit despite its flaws.

 

Mike

[Bruce Archer]

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

I was given the Airfix MK.XII kit as a gift (from the lovely and de-liteful Dana, my wife) so I had to make a go of it. After shaving, filling, sanding and filling it looks a lot better, not perfect but a lot better. Airfix has been getting better, and I hope to recieve a high back Mk.XIV soon, and perhaps they would bless us with a Mk.Vc FINALLY!!!!

Bruce

[Adam Maas]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:48 PM, alt-92 said:

I might be wrong, but seeing as the whole discussion regarding the fuselage focuses on being too deep and the Mk.XII being essentially a Griffon plastered on the front ahead of fr.5 - wouldn't that mean the fuse is too deep for a Mk.V also?

It would be, but thankfully the Airfix XII molds are unrelated to any of their MkV molds.

[Troy Smith]

On 05/02/2020 at 23:05, mick b said:

So just to clarify; the plastic insert shown in the nose is 2mm and the tail 1.5mm? 

 

I used the Airfix V as a guide.  

IIRC the fuel tank splice was with some Evergreen strip

https://evergreenscalemodels.com/collections/14-35cm-opaque-white-polystrene-ho-scale-strips-1-87/products/8406-043-x-066-1-1mm-x-1-7mm-opaque-white-polystyrene-ho-scale-strips-4x6

I picked up when Modelzone closed down, and was just right.

Note, the SH fin has slight forward angle,  which you correct when adding the extension.

 

There are more photos of the modification and comparisons here, along with discussion of wing position and reason for here, in much greater detail.

I must rehost the photos as the PB logo is highly annoying (though there is a workround) 

 

 

[mick b]

Cheers Troy much appreciated 

 

Mike

[ReccePhreak]

Looking through this post has got me to wondering - does all this mean that the Special Hobby Seafire Mk.II & Seafire Mk.III also have an incorrect fuselage length?

Both kits are in my stash, and awaiting my starting on them.

Larry

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:

does all this mean that the Special Hobby Seafire Mk.II & Seafire Mk.III also have an incorrect fuselage length?

yes. The pics above of the modified kit are actually the SH Seafire III fuselage

[J Sherratt]

This is really useful stuff as I had a SH Mk XII kit at Christmas, although it is still in the stash at the moment. 

 

I didnt know Eduard are going to do a Mk I??

[fastterry]

I have been following this thread with interest as in the past I have cobbled a MkXII together using an ICM kit and a Hobbycraft nose in 1/48 and also built a XII in 1/32 using a Hasegawa MkV kit with a Grey Matter Figures nose.

I have recently bought the SH kit and have made a start. A few observations if I may.

As Troy has mentioned the SH 1/48 MkXII fuselage length is as near as damn it correct. The SH kit rudder is about 1.5mm too wide which may be because the same basic kit is used for the Seafire XV. I had a spare Eduard rudder which I thought would fit nicely but it is quite narrow so I have modified the SH one. The wide rudder may have the visual effect of making the backend look too short as eluded to earlier.

The fact that the wing is 2mm too far back is well documented, no argument there.

The thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the spinner is at least 1.5 - 2mm too long. This also effects the overall length. According to my records a MkXII should be 31'10" o/a which is 9703mm divided by 48 is 202.14. If you shorten the rudder and the spinner as above it works out spot on. I have left myself open a bit here because I couldn't find any info on internet so I measured the spinner length and diameter of both the Airfix MkXIV and the Mk22/24 which seem to concur. Just to throw a few worms in here the Airfix MkXIX spinner is shorter and smaller in diameter. Barracuda make a spinner and blade set for the Mk22/24 but only make blades for the XIX. Maybe if they supplied the correct spinner it wouldn't match the kit nose. As far as I could make out all the Griffon spits should have the same spinner dimensions.

Lastly the props in the kit are wrong for a MkXII being more typical for a Seafire XV or XVII. The Griffon in the XII developed 1750hp which is the same as a 60-70 series Merlin so the props are very similar to a MkIX just turning the other way. I studied the props for some time when I built the 1/32 model because the Grey Matter ones were way too short and had shape errors leading me to scratch build some new ones.

The SH kit certainly has it's problems but I don't mind a challenge and am powering on with mine.

TRF

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, fastterry said:

Just to throw a few worms in here the Airfix MkXIX spinner is shorter and smaller in diameter.

The 48th Airfix XIX is noted for having a slightly too small nose ring,  not visually jarring, like the overszie Academy XIV, but enough that a correct spinner won't work!

3 hours ago, fastterry said:

As Troy has mentioned the SH 1/48 MkXII fuselage length is as near as damn it correct.

except it makes the wing in the wrog place, so it is noticeable to the spit-a-holic...

3 hours ago, fastterry said:

Lastly the props in the kit are wrong for a MkXII being more typical for a Seafire XV or XVII. The Griffon in the XII developed 1750hp which is the same as a 60-70 series Merlin so the props are very similar to a MkIX just turning the other way. I studied the props for some time

this is where going photo hunting is really helpful.  Useful pointer, and I shall endeavour to find again that head on shot of a XII.

I think SH used a common tree for the those parts.  

3 hours ago, fastterry said:

The SH kit rudder is about 1.5mm too wide which may be because the same basic kit is used for the Seafire XV.

 

3 hours ago, fastterry said:

The thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the spinner is at least 1.5 - 2mm too long.

again, interetsing points. the SH kit is not too hand, but areas to check.   I only had a cursory look at the kit, mostly to chekc the length was the same as the other SH kits.

 

Great first post TRF,   if you have pics of the models you mention you should post some photos in Ready For Inspection section.

 

cheers

T