Ju.88T in Italy

[Giorgio N]

I recently bought an old AMtech kit of the Ju-88S/T-1 and I'm now looking for some interesting subject. I know that this kit is not the best around but still represents an S/T (quite an interesting variant) and it was cheap enough (for £15 posted it would be hard to get the Hasegawa kit...). Anyway, I've always been intrigued by these late variants of the 88 and as it's not a Spitfire I can live with a few inaccuracies...

Now in the past I had found some interesting colour scheme for the S bombers, however the kit includes decals for a T-1 recce aircraft serving with 1.(F)123 based in Italy in 1944. As I'm always interested in subjects that flew over Italy in the last couple of years of the war, this immediately attracted my attention. "Problem" is that the scheme proposed is a bit "boring", being simply 70/71 over 65, in contrast with the schemes used by the bombers.

Fortunately bit of web searching showed me this:

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-88/(F)123/pages/Junkers-Ju-88Tl-1.FAGr123-(4U+BH)-after-a-recon-mission-flown-by-Ofw.-Bach-Perugia-Italy-01.html

 

Another T-1 from the same unit with what looks like a more interesting scheme !

Now, my interpretation is that it should simply be an original 70/71/65 finish with the addition of a "wave mirror" in a light colour. Which colour though ? Looks the same as the lower surfaces, so 65, but I've often read of the use of 76 for these finishes.

Then I have some doubt about the lower surfaces of the engine nacelle: the cowling is clearly light (RLM 65 I guess) but the rest of the nacelle looks pretty dark. I know, it's in the shade of the wing, but looks too dark to be just the effect of being in shade. Could this be in black ? If the nacelle is in black however I wonder, would part of the wing be in black as well or would it be in 65 ? I know that other T-1s of the 2.(F)123 had black undersurfaces but this one clearly shows the general lower colour to be light.

Anyone with any knowledge of this aircraft ? I'll be happy to hear opinions and suggestions ! And also to hear of any other interesting Ju.88T based in Italy

[Graham Boak]

Possibly just exhaust stains.  The top of the wing is pretty mucky.  These will also be seen under the tips of the tailplane, perhaps even above?

[Super Aereo]

IIRC, that photo was published with a better resolution in Air War Italy 1944-45 by D'Amico-Valentini-Beale.

[Crimea River]

I'm with Graham on the exhaust stain theory. If you look at the aircraft in the background of your picture you can see the effect better. Hre's another sample: 

 

 

I'd be speculating on the welle colour so won't comment.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Crimea River

[Giorgio N]

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Possibly just exhaust stains.  The top of the wing is pretty mucky.  These will also be seen under the tips of the tailplane, perhaps even above?

 

5 hours ago, Crimea River said:

I'm with Graham on the exhaust stain theory. If you look at the aircraft in the background of your picture you can see the effect better. Hre's another sample: 

 

I'd be speculating on the welle colour so won't comment.

 

Thanks folks, makes sense, particularly seeing the stains below those two aircraft. I'll go with 65 undersides and stain the nacelles heavily

[Giorgio N]

8 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

IIRC, that photo was published with a better resolution in Air War Italy 1944-45 by D'Amico-Valentini-Beale.

 

Thanks ! I have the version in Polish published by WM and found the picture, much better in the book. The nacelle is clearly light, so 65 with some stain. There's also a picture of another T1 but it's quite small and doesn't show any interesting detail. I think I'll build this aircraft now, unless someone comes with a suggestion for an even more interesting scheme

[Crimea River]

Hmmmm. How about blue RLM 83.....

[Giorgio N]

6 hours ago, Crimea River said:

Hmmmm. How about blue RLM 83.....

 

Who knows,...

If I understand correctly this colour was tested and used in the MTO and on a number of Ju.88s based in Italy, however I wonder if the T variant would have ever used it. Not having any hard evidence, I would be inclined to think that as the Ju.88T was not really tasked with maritime operations this variant would have retained the good old 70/71 scheme rather than using the blue 83, but it's just my line of thought.

At the same time I'm also planning a Ju.88A from the Zvezda kit with this blue, I just have to identify a subject that was likely to sport this colour

[Graham Boak]

The aircraft that landed in Switzerland is believed to have used this colour.  Markings as are in the Italeri kit.  I agree that the T is less likely to have used this.

[72modeler]

Uh, oh- RLM83   alert!

 

Mike

[Wm Blecky]

As for the exhaust staining, the Ju.88s in Crimea's photo are Jumo engined, the Ju.88T was powered by a BMW engine.  If you look at the positioning of the exhausts between the 2 engine types, it is quite different.  I think that dark appearance is a combination of shadow / paint job and not the heavy exhaust staining as you see in the picture of the Ju.88s from Crimea.

 

The picture below shows a Ju.88T with the under surfaces definitely painted black.

 

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but you can be the beginnings of exhaust staining under the wings on that photo too.  Remember that the Fw190A often had large black areas painted on the fuselage sides to hide the staining - this was a function of the fuel used not the engine type.  In the original photo you can see staining on top of the wings.  That the particular Ju88As show larger amounts is more likely to be an indication of greater use than any other principle.

[Giorgio N]

5 hours ago, Wm Blecky said:

As for the exhaust staining, the Ju.88s in Crimea's photo are Jumo engined, the Ju.88T was powered by a BMW engine.  If you look at the positioning of the exhausts between the 2 engine types, it is quite different.  I think that dark appearance is a combination of shadow / paint job and not the heavy exhaust staining as you see in the picture of the Ju.88s from Crimea.

 

The picture below shows a Ju.88T with the under surfaces definitely painted black.

 

 

 

When I mentioned aircraft with black undersurfaces, this was one I had in mind. She is 4U+MK of 2.(F)123, carrying the name "Mizzi" and probably based in Greece in 1944

[Smudge]

Interesting topic. I have a few of the old AMtech Ju-88T/S etc. and I'm surprised that they don't seem to get much attention. Don't often see any built up. I would also be interested in any alternative schemes. Thanks for the pictures.

[tango98]

FWIW, on Ju88 and 188 aircraft powered by BMW radials exhaust staining was very apparent and markedly stained both upper and lower surfaces of the main wings as well as the upper and lower surfaces of the tail planes.

An example of the extent of this staining on a 188 can be seen on page 72 in vol.2 of Aufklarer in the Classic Colours series.

 

Cheers

Dave

[JPuente54]

Remember the "Law of modelling" though, as soon as you finish your Ju-88T, a photo of one with the RLM83 Dark Blue will be discovered and shown on these pages; and, with the markings of your aircraft. And, a great shot in color of the upper colors will be one of them; taken by Luftwaffe photographers wanting to show the new coloring.

Edited February 6, 2020 by JPuente54
wording, phrasing

[Giorgio N]

3 hours ago, Smudge said:

Interesting topic. I have a few of the old AMtech Ju-88T/S etc. and I'm surprised that they don't seem to get much attention. Don't often see any built up. I would also be interested in any alternative schemes. Thanks for the pictures.

Maybe these kits were not too succesful for one reason or the other. They are interesting variants for sure but I can understand how the more "classic" A-4s and similat would get more attention by modelers. Wonder if the lack of much information is also a reason for the little attention they get.

 

[Jochen Barett]

1 hour ago, JPuente54 said:

Remember the "Law of modelling" though, as soon as you finish your Ju-88T, a photo of one with the RLM83 Dark Blue will be discovered and shown on these pages; and, with the markings of your aircraft. And, a great shot in color of the upper colors will be one of them; taken by Luftwaffe photographers wanting to show the new coloring.

First a picture will turn up to show absence/presence of a white Rumpfband.

After having corrected that, a picture might show yellow wing tips or yellow engine cowling undersides.

A little later the spinners will be shown in RLM 70 or Staffel-color.

 

Since it took more than 65 years to discover/suggest the possibility of RLM 83 Dunkelblau, it will probably take another 65 years to really verify the existence - but show abscence on this Ju 88 (the men in black used a mixture of RLM 24 and RLM 74 leftovers).

 

Once that is settled, pictures will show the plane received a replacement rudder from another Ju 88 without RLM 76 Wellenmuster (probably in RLM 79 (the late variant), but it may look a bit too reddish).

 

I'd go for 65/70/71 with 76 Wellen, a white Rumpfband, spinners in Staffel-color and ponder on yellow wing tips or lower cowlings.