Troy Smith Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, noelh said: On the other hand is this quote from Pilot Officer Frank Mitchell of 87 squadron before Dieppe. 'August 18 - spent the day, apart from briefing, in converting the black night fighters to daytime camouflage. Paint everywhere - very rushed job'. So yes exactly as you say and as seen in the pictures of 87 squadron. Thank you, interesting point. Except.... what the 87 Sq photos show is the night intruder scheme. Now, some observations . I don't when the 87 Sq photos were taken P/O Mitchell is not likely to have known what the paint scheme was called, and taken adding upper in green/grey uppers as daytime camouflage? If you were unaware of the specifications of the night intruder scheme, (and why would you be as a pilot) and knew that green/grey uppers are daytime camouflage, then his comment makes sense as being repainted to "daytime colours" AND fits the photos. Just a suggestion. Also, I have not seen an 87 Sq IIc in standard DFS. HTH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) Thanks Troy and like P/O Mitchell I didn't recognise the the night intruder scheme either. I checked the IWM website and that photo of the 87 squadron Hurricane LK-R is dated as the 2nd September 1942. Two weeks after Dieppe. Which fits with the obviously messy paint job. Interestingly in the right background there is an all black Hurricane. Not yet repainted. Edited February 6, 2020 by noelh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Look at the photo of LK-A in post 16. It looks like the roundel is high gloss and is reflecting the LK-A and fuselage roundel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 @Troy Smith, Troy, I have a question regarding HL603 in the photo posted earlier in this discussion of the six No. 87 Sq. IIc's in formation. Am I correct in assuming that JX-I, HL603 has a sky spinner and fuselage band, yellow LE ID stripes, and a dark green/medium sea grey/night camouflage scheme? Codes in sky? Hard to tell in the photo if the underside is night. (Help me Obie-Wan- you're my only hope!) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 On 2/5/2020 at 3:23 PM, Troy Smith said: No, the 87 sq pics show the Night Intruder scheme AFAIK, uppers repainted in Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey, underside staying Night. Troy, See the attached link; can you scroll down to the very large formation photo of the 87 Squadron Mk IIc's that have been posted in this discussion, and give me your thoughts on the upper surface and undersurface colors, especially the probability of night undersurfaces? There are some outstanding photos in the linked site, fighters and bombers, many of which I think might be new to many interested parties, but it is the Hurricane photos I wanted your comments on. Thanks! Mike http://virtpilot.org/files/lib/book366.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 8 hours ago, 72modeler said: @Troy Smith, Troy, I have a question regarding HL603 in the photo posted earlier in this discussion of the six No. 87 Sq. IIc's in formation. Am I correct in assuming that JX-I, HL603 has a sky spinner and fuselage band, yellow LE ID stripes, and a dark green/medium sea grey/night camouflage scheme? Codes in sky? Hard to tell in the photo if the underside is night. (Help me Obie-Wan- you're my only hope!) Mike Edit . This is 1 Sq . There are some formation photos of 87 Sq in the Night Intruder scheme (see post below) Mike, if anything HL603 JX-I is a 'vanilla' scheme and is just in factory Day Fighter Scheme, why? ....the serial on the Sky band, is per factory application. Right position 'font' and size, only plane in the line up like this. JX-I, HL603 has a sky spinner and fuselage band, yellow LE ID stripes, yes and a dark green/medium sea grey/night Ocean Grey/ Medium Sea grey camouflage scheme? yes Codes in sky? Yes Hard to tell in the photo if the underside is night. No @Seahawk perhaps will be kind enough to have a look at Air Britain and see if there is any info. If I can get to mine, I will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 @72modeler 87 Sq Night Intruder in flight photos, will edit in more, just found something else 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 On 06/02/2020 at 11:11, noelh said: Thanks Troy and like P/O Mitchell I didn't recognise the the night intruder scheme either. I checked the IWM website and that photo of the 87 squadron Hurricane LK-R is dated as the 2nd September 1942. Two weeks after Dieppe. Which fits with the obviously messy paint job. Interestingly in the right background there is an all black Hurricane. Not yet repainted. this turned up in an image search re the Dieppe raid https://making-history.ca/2019/07/06/the-greatest-air-battle-dieppe-19th-august-1942/ Looks to be a film still, so time to do some hunting. EDIT - bingo https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/807 Quote Description:Dawn and a flare arcs down to the ground. Hurricanes of 87 Squadron emerge through the mist to land, one without undercarriage. A "vic" formation and a flight of four aircraft take off followed by a squadron of 12 Spitfires flying over the airfield. Assembled ground crew in a group watch something off camera. Aircrew fool around. A Hurricane of 43 Squadron warms up. 501 Squadron Spitfires start their take off run. Ground crew are filmed performing various duties (re-fuelling, attaching aircraft panels) as aircraft continue to taxi, take off, land, and fly over the airfield. Aircraft seen are Bostons of 88 and 107 Squadrons and Hurricanes of 174 and 175. The blog references here so I'll see if the he can add some info on the image source. ah Note LK-Q here LK-T looks to be a IIA . The non standard pattern at least is fairly consistent in it's application. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Excellent find. Really interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Troy Smith said: This is 1 Sq Yep- I realized what I had done after I posted- sorry! Thanks for the correction! I have always thought that the night intruder scheme with the green/medium grey/night colors was so neat-looking, especially with the external tanks, that I would like to do one, but don't really want to do one that has the serial overpainted. My first airbrushed model was the old Airfix Mk IV done as Kuttlewascher's IIc, using the Frog kit decals and 20mm, and I was so proud of myself that for the first time, I used a written referecne, the old Ducimus color 4-view profile, and even duplicated the doped red patches with decal stock. Imagine my heartbreak upon becoming a regular here on BM and finding out that the scheme and markings were pants, as you UK types say. I'm still in mourning! 😥 (Oh, the humanity!) Thanks for taking the time to research and answer my query. Mike Edited February 8, 2020 by 72modeler corrected spelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, 72modeler said: but don't really want to do one that has the serial overpainted. want the moon on a stick do we! https://www.petermesser.com/components/com_eventgallery/helpers/image.php?&mode=full&folder=archived-work&file=The+Moon+On+A+Stick.jpg HL684, look carefully under the tailplane. caption Quote Hurricane IIc RAF 87Sqn LK Question Nightingale PO Frank Mitchell HL864 so I presume that the scroll says 'Nightingale' ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.No Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Hi, I built it also in the past. It was a cheap kit. Here I attach photo frames with color scheme. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dr.No said: I built it also in the past. It was a cheap kit. this is the Heller kit reboxed, but hopefully better decals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 On 2/8/2020 at 9:27 AM, Troy Smith said: @Seahawk perhaps will be kind enough to have a look at Air Britain and see if there is any info. If I can get to mine, I will. The record for HL603 simply remarks that it was a II c and that it served with 1 Sq, 539 Sq and 1 AFU before being struck off charge on 2 Aug 45. The entry in Mason's The Hawker Hurricane (1990 Ed) says "NF. Mk. IIc No 1 Sq Acklington; operational training 9-42 JX-I. No 539 (Turbinlite) Sq, Acklington, 10-42." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 On 2/8/2020 at 6:19 AM, Troy Smith said: @72modeler 87 Sq Night Intruder in flight photos, will edit in more, just found something else Can I ask the collective what the spinner color is on LK*A ? Profiles and some threads state Red, would that be correct ? Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 The best evidence is red 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) Troy, 87 Squadron were certainly under the impression that they were putting Day Fighter colours on their Hurris in preparation for Dieppe. Quote For the rest of the evening [18th Aug] there were hasty preparations, studying of maps, pictures, etc. Among other things all the Squadron aircraft had to be re-camouflaged in day colouring in a few hours. All hands got down to this and it was completed by nightfall. Edit: Following Dieppe, they were released, there was also a spell of bad weather, and they did not return to operations in August. In early September they DID return to night duties in cooperation with Turbinlites, but on the 7th were taken off night duties for a period of day training. I saw no further mention of alterations to the paint jobs, but I thought that the context might be useful. Edited March 2, 2020 by gingerbob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 11 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said: Profiles and some threads state Red, would that be correct ? I agree with WIP- especially if you compare the spinner to the red on the fuselage roundel and fin flash, Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 13 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said: Can I ask the collective what the spinner color is on LK*A ? Profiles and some threads state Red, would that be correct ? 13 hours ago, Work In Progress said: The best evidence is red this was posted by Chris on page 1 there is an enlargement showing the canopy paint flaking, so I suspect that this is the same LK-A as above. (I need to check Air Britain as that may confirm) The red spinner maybe a 'tradition' or precedent set from Ian Gleed's red spinner on his BoB and nightfighter Hurricane in 1940/41, also coded LK-A, just a suggestion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 Thanks @Troy Smith... Ive seen the photo however its on the all black Hurricane. I was just trying to confirm if it stayed red when the day colors were hastily added. I am going with red as thats what the consensus say and it agrees with my views on both photo’s and profiles. Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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