Stupid Hurricane question ?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

     Hello Everyone... Im building a Hawker Hurricane IIc I'm planning on Kuttlewascher’s night Intruder markings. Yes I know Im opening a  on the Subject. Ive read through a few threads but either missed the info I need or it wasn't there. Im doing the DFS over nite bottom. But did this scheme carry the yellow L/E identification bands ? Or were they not carried on night intruders ? Any help is gratefully acknowledged ahead of time. @Troy Smith and @Graham Boak if you know then Im happy to take your suggestions. 
 

Dennis  

[Black Knight]

afair night fighters and night intruders did not have the yellow on the wings' leading edges.

It was a daylight identification feature

[Wince]

Crikey @Corsairfoxfouruncle Join the IIc madness! The restored versions are painted with the yellow leading edges. I will look at my extensive references but I would say they were not on kuttlewaschers hurricane 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Thanks @Black Knight & @Wince... Would that also go for the sky band on the fuselage ?

[Troy Smith]

49 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Im doing the DFS over nite bottom.

This is the one based on a profile, below,  which no-one has ever seen any photos of, as are quite a few others in the Aircraft in Profile series, some of which are now regarded as complete cobblers. 

All the other profiles of BE581 spring from this source.

 

while very detailed, too much of it just does not ring true, like the Sky band, and yellow leading edges.

the big one for me the replacement black panel on the wing, from another Hurricane.  I have posted on this before, it's a large piece of wing skinning here,  not a panel that could be replaced. 

I bang on about this here 

which is the thread I would start with.

 

this is the only decent pic of BE581

 

 

@Corsairfoxfouruncle if you really must take a leap of faith on this,  do it in like with the 87 Sq night Intruder scheme, upper in Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey over night,  on the 87 Sq template

 

The relevant page from Ducimus.

better seen here, codes are thought to be Sky Grey

 

Note BOTH the Profile  above  and the Ducimus guide are by James Goulding (I only just noticed myself) and the later Ducimus guide makes no mention of 1 Sq repaints.  

this is the read on 1 sq repaints for Dieppe

 

24 minutes ago, Wince said:

The restored versions are painted with the yellow leading edges.

the restored one is based exactly on the profile above.   

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

18 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

@Corsairfoxfouruncle if you really must take a leap of faith on this,  do it in like with the 87 Sq night Intruder scheme, upper in Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey over night,  on the 87 Sq template

 

The relevant page from Ducimus.

better seen here, codes are thought to be Sky Grey

I actually have read both those threads thus the  confusion and  comment. I have decals for JX*B and LK*? in grey, so I can switch to those aircraft. I was going to base my paint scheme more on this photo ⬆️ and not the profile in question. But as it isn't the same aircraft, I was trying to confirm I didn't need to add the Yellow or Sky. 

[Troy Smith]

9 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I have decals for JX*B and LK*? in grey, so I can switch to those aircraft. I was going to base my paint scheme more on this photo ⬆️ and not the profile in question. But as it isn't the same aircraft, I was trying to confirm I didn't need to add the Yellow or Sky. 

FWIW,  IMO, just do a confirmed scheme.

But, no yellow or sky.

One possibility,  the profile of JX-E/BE581 maybe based on a misinterpretation of the 1 Sq DFS repaints, with the flaking MSG undersides

or a brief window with the uppers done, but not the underside..... I find it hard to believe that the Sky band and yellow LE would be done before the undersides though.

 

If you want to do BE581,  you could just copy the above, as that is an interesting scheme to replicate,  though as the linked thread says,  it could just end up looking like a badly painted model...

[72modeler]

Dennis,

 

As Tattoo used to say on Fantasy Island, "The pain, Boss, the pain!" I have always thought Kuttlewascher's Mk IIc was the most beautiful Hurricane, ever, and I used that famous Ducimus color profile to do his Hurri, using the old Frog kit and decals 'way back in the late 70's. Imagine the pain in my heart when I became a member of the BM family and read all of the topic discussions on what is probably the best-known Hurricane  of them all, after K5083, PZ865, and DT-A! To say I was heartbroken is a gross understatement! That green/grey/night scheme with the red codes and serial and external tanks was the bee's knees. I still hold out a very faint but probably forlorn hope that direct proof will come to light someday that the scheme portrayed so many years ago is indeed accurate. I guess my dream to do his Mk IIc using the much better Arma Hobby kit will most likely be changed to LK-R, but I hate to do an RAF airplane with no visible serial. I feel your pain, bro'! 😥

Mike

Edited February 4, 2020 by 72modeler
added text

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

19 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

using the much better Arma Hobby kit

Email inbound

[ClaudioN]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

better seen here, codes are thought to be Sky Grey

...although the shade of grey of the 'LK' squadron code appears remarkably similar to that of the roundel centre. 'R' is definitely whiter.

Also, 'R' is a bit oddly shaped, considering the position and slope of the lower diagonal segment.

 

Maybe we should give a thought to Dull Red 'LK' and Sky Grey 'R' ?

 

For the really adventurous... 'R' repainted and adapted from '?'. Well... going too far, I know.

[Seahawk]

A spectacularly scrappy finish, one that I should be able to replicate quite effortlessly.  "Of course, in real life, an aircraft would never be finished that badly."

 

What's on the scroll below the cockpit?

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Mike, Kuttelwascher's BE581 in her three-colour guise ranks high on my list of the most interesting Hurricanes, too. I completely understand your frustration about the lack of photos of the Night Reaper. However, this webpage may help (scroll down to just above the colour profiles). Cheers

Jure

[Black Knight]

AMO

A.664/42  APPENDIX 1

(Amended to A1096/42, issued 8 Oct 1942 and A1377/42 issued 24 December 1942)

 

For Day Fighters

Fighter Command

(i) (a) Day fighter, at home:

Day fighter scheme, Sea grey medium, Red and Blue Roundels, Red, white and blue roundels, Red, white, blue and yellow roundels.  Registration no. (night).  Code letters (sky) Standard marking

Spinner: sky.

18 in. wide vertical band of sky around fuselage immediately forward of the tail unit.  Yellow strip on the leading edge of wings.

 

 

Night Fighters

(ii) (a) Night fighters, at home: Dark green and sea grey medium, Sea grey medium, Red and Blue Roundels, No marking, Red, white, blue and yellow roundels.  Registration no. (dull red).  Code letters (dull red), Standard marking,  Sea green medium, Spinner - sea grey medium

 

Night Intruders

(ii) (b) Intruder aircraft: Dark green and sea grey medium, Night Red and Blue Roundels, No marking, Red, white, blue and yellow roundels.  Registration no. (dull red).  Code letters (dull red), Fin and rudder are coloured sea grey medium and bear standard markings.

Spinner sea grey medium

 

These are in a tabultaed form and that is the best I can do in posting them.

Note that the Day Fighters scheme says 18 inch band and yellow wing l/e (I bolded the reference) but it is not in the Night schemes

 

Reading across the table blocks are;

Aircraft type - Colouring of Upper surface camouflage - Colouring of Under surfaces camouflage - National markings: Upper surface of wings - National marking: Under surface of wings - National marking: Fuselage - National marking & colour: Fins - Additional or Special Markings

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

What's on the scroll below the cockpit?

I think it says 'Night Duty'

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

7 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Night Intruders

(ii) (b) Intruder aircraft: Dark green and sea grey medium, Night Red and Blue Roundels, No marking, Red, white, blue and yellow roundels.  Registration no. (dull red).  Code letters (dull red), Fin and rudder are coloured sea grey medium and bear standard markings.

Spinner sea grey medium

Does this section underlined mean no underwing Roundels ? 

[dogsbody]

This one doesn't have the yellow leading edges:

 

 

Hurricane Mark IIC, BE500 'LK-A' "United Provinces Cawnpore", being flown by Squadron Leader Dennis Smallwood, the Commanding Officer of No.87 Squadron RAF based at Charmy Down, Somerset. BE500 subsequently served with No. 533 Squadron RAF and finally in the Far East.

 

 

 

Chris

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Does this section underlined mean no underwing Roundels ? 

Thats what it says in the tables - No underwing National Roundels

[Wince]

I’ve always thought that night schemes didn’t have underwing roundels. As for LK-A, is that fragments of the day fighter scheme on the canopy frame?

[Troy Smith]

29 minutes ago, Wince said:

I’ve always thought that night schemes didn’t have underwing roundels. As for LK-A, is that fragments of the day fighter scheme on the canopy frame?

yes.

Hurricane canopies flex and bend as they move.

 

Hurricane pilot, c1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

[Wince]

@Troy Smith I’m starting to think that what you don’t know about hurricanes isn’t worth knowing! 

[noelh]

17 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Note BOTH the Profile  above  and the Ducimus guide are by James Goulding (I only just noticed myself) and the later Ducimus guide makes no mention of 1 Sq repaints.  

this is the read on 1 sq repaints for Dieppe

Troy, slightly puzzled by the reference to 1 sq repaint for Dieppe. A typo? I just happened to be re reading 'The Greatest Air Battle' and 1 sq wasn't there. It was  by then on research already converting to the Typhoon. 

On the other hand 87 sq was hurriedly repainted from black to a version of the day fighter scheme the day before Dieppe. With the results seen in the photos. 

 

I think you or someone else said in one of the threads that the 87 sq repaint job can't really be extrapolated to 1 sq because the circumstances were quite different. 

Which I suppose doesn't really help nail down JX-E's scheme except that at one point it was all black. 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by noelh

[dogsbody]

Though not directly related to this topic, I have some pictures that were sent to me by Carl Vincent. He includes some information with them.

 

" I have been noting the thread on night fighter Hurricane IIC’s. I have nothing to say on the subject, but it did put me in mind of a few old photos of mine. Almost half a century ago I was on a civil service French course and one of my fellow students was a former RAF pilot. He had flown Gladiators with 247 Squadron and gone on to Hurricanes. Unfortunately, he only had a few photos but he loaned me them to copy – that was back in the dark ages before scanners and digital cameras, but I did my best. "

 

" As a matter of interest, he told me that the squadron and its aircraft were known to the locals as “the saucy boys” because of the unit code letters – the well-known HP Sauce. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Troy Smith]

21 hours ago, Wince said:

@Troy Smith I’m starting to think that what you don’t know about hurricanes isn’t worth knowing! 

Oh, there is plenty I don't know,  I have yet to have the time and finances to do some proper research! 

6 hours ago, noelh said:

Troy, slightly puzzled by the reference to 1 sq repaint for Dieppe. A typo? I just happened to be re reading 'The Greatest Air Battle' and 1 sq wasn't there. It was  by then on research already converting to the Typhoon. 

Thanks Noel

I had read that the 1 sq planes were repainted before the Dieppe raid, and accepted that detail. 

The 1 sq hurricanes were repainted from the Night scheme,  as shown by the very scruffy ones here, which are post May 42 as they have the C type roundels.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235025819-interesting-scheme-for-the-hurricane-fan-to-replicate/

 

JX-Y 

 

 

6 hours ago, noelh said:

On the other hand 87 sq was hurriedly repainted from black to a version of the day fighter scheme the day before Dieppe. With the results seen in the photos. 

No, the 87 sq pics show the Night Intruder scheme AFAIK, uppers repainted in Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey, underside staying Night.

 

6 hours ago, noelh said:

I think you or someone else said in one of the threads that the 87 sq repaint job can't really be extrapolated to 1 sq because the circumstances were quite different. 

Which I suppose doesn't really help nail down JX-E's scheme except that at one point it was all black. 

 

I suggested that the profile of JX-E BE581 could be a result of a partial repaint,  or even worse underside paint flaking than JX-Y, so appearing as Night?  

Just a supposition.

 

[noelh]

I think you could be right about JX-E BE581. A partial repaint and a flaky paint job. 1 squadron went from night fighter to day fighter and back . So it's really plausible.

 

On the other hand is this quote from Pilot Officer Frank Mitchell of 87 squadron before Dieppe. 'August 18 - spent the day, apart from briefing, in converting the black night fighters to daytime camouflage. Paint everywhere - very rushed job'. So yes exactly as you say and as seen in the pictures of 87 squadron. 

 

Actually from reading the book I really fancy a really dodgy 87 squadron paint job for Dieppe. Well within my limited abilities! Lol. 

[Wince]

@Troy Smith Well you are a very modest gent and have certainly helped my hurricane adventures! I find my own build more informed. 

This thread btw is absolutely brilliant. Love those images of the saucy boys! (And yes I know that sounds rather bad!) 😂