Guideline Publications Mikoyan-Gurevich Mig-15 Warpaint No.120

[Whofan]

Okay, I've been getting on with the "Frog/Ruch" Mig 15 variant, and all was going well.

 

At least, the tube of PPP still has some in it, the cutting, sanding and filing in order to get the wings to fit to the fuselage - and the tailplanes, too has been done, and the two odd pieces of plastic on the sprue tentatively identified as possibly being fuselage mounted radio aerials. 

 

I say tentatively as they are not actually referred to in the instructions, but shown on the sprue plan. The guns were interesting items to fit; the 37mm cannon body had to be sanded down in a curve on the underside to fit the fuselage, as it had been moulded completely straight. And none of the guns had any marks on the fuselage to identify where they went, so fit is a little bit of guess work.

 

I gave up trying to fit the air brakes - they weren't ever going to fit in the recesses in the fuselage, so I filled those with PPP - which surprisingly didn't turn out too bad.

 

Then it came to painting. I gave it a coat of Halfords matt black rattle can paint as a primer, which as you can see, turned out okay.

 

 

a few little wrinkles around the nose, which didn't look too difficult to sort out.

 

After it had cured in the airing cupboard (these old things have their uses!) I decided to paint it with a top coat of Halfords steel (wheels) paint. 

 

Well, I got a coat on, and this happened;

 

 

Some runs on the starboard wing, tail, starboard rear fuseage, and on the underside

 

 

some runs on the tail planes, a bit of a contact ith a piece of paper under the nose, and some odd variations in tone from quite glossy to quite dull.

 

I think I have a good idea why I got runs, too close, too much, etc., but I'm going to shelve this, and move on to the KP Mig 15 which does look a better shape, albeit the cockpit aperture looks odd.

 

The question is, however - the paint colour. Given the actual aeroplane is said to be an aluminium colour, dos the halfords steel paint look too different? Some of the aluminium paints I've seen I thought have been too bright - for instance, the Halfords aluminium is quite silvery.

 

I'm impressed with their matt black paint, which I wil use again for nmf as a primer finshes, but what thinks the BM massif on the Halfords steel colour?

[Mike]

This seems to have morphed into a WIP, so unless I'm mistaken, I'll shift it for you.

[Whofan]

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

This seems to have morphed into a WIP, so unless I'm mistaken, I'll shift it for you.

Mike,

 

apologies, it's more an RIP than a WIP!

 

I was just moving on from the earlier part of the discussion about the source of what I had thought was a Frog kit into pointing out how awkward it was to build.

 

If anything, it's probably more of a paint query, as that's how I left it.

 

I'll bow to your fine judgement.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Whofan

[Mike]

Now I don't know See how it develops then.  If you're gonna keep posting progress, we should really stuff it in WIP.  Only you know that, so let me know

[Whofan]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

Now I don't know See how it develops then.  If you're gonna keep posting progress, we should really stuff it in WIP.  Only you know that, so let me know

Now I'm confusing you!

 

It's only what people think (despite the poor photo) of the metalllic colour I had from the Halfords steel paint. What do you think? Too dark for an NMF finish?

Edited February 18, 2020 by Whofan

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, Whofan said:

What do you think? Too dark for an NMF finish?

From the little I know, I'd say it's more of a gun metal than an NMF. Don't take too much notice of my comments on colour though, as I don't have my Munsell scales to hand right now

[Julien]

As the real things were not NMF but Aluminium powder in clear coat I would say in this case it looks too dark Im afraid.

 

Julien

[Whofan]

6 hours ago, Julien said:

As the real things were not NMF but Aluminium powder in clear coat I would say in this case it looks too dark Im afraid.

 

Julien

Julien, thanks for this.

 

I had already decided that I would use one of the aluminium paints available when I make up the next Mig 15, but I will keep the halfords steel paint for other projects.

[Aardvark]

On 2/19/2020 at 8:52 AM, Julien said:

As the real things were not NMF but Aluminium powder in clear coat

Aluminium powder in clear coat was various percentage, but when aluminium powder was maximum allowable content was precisely aluminum paint, as You see on scan page original Soviet paint chips catalogue:

On 2/19/2020 at 8:52 AM, Julien said:

I would say in this case it looks too dark Im afraid.

 Exactly!

 

About book.

I completely agree with @KRK4m

on what was said about the drawings in this book.

Also me unknown any documents that would confirm the Red stars with a yellow outline on MiG-15

"8170":

Moreover, according to the Official regulations on the USSR insignia, the 

outline of Red stars could be either white or silver /"NMF".

Therefore, while color photos

MiG-15

"8170" have not been published, 

Red stars with a yellow outline

 are more than doubtful.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

 

[junglierating]

On 2/1/2020 at 11:01 AM, Julien said:

The old KP kits may be a bit crude by todays standards but they were fairly accurate.

 

The Eduard MiG-15 is very nice

 

Julien

I imagine the KP team had more readily access back in the day.

That said airfix in 2009 post 1989 should of had no excuse..  then again I have one in the stash and if I build it one light year I'll make judgement then ...I'll expect it will look like one so meh good enough for govt.work👍🙄

Got a Heller F104 to put together apparently it's too big any truth in that ...looks like a nice old kit ..two seater for me

[Diego]

3 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Aluminium powder in clear coat was various percentage, but when aluminium powder was maximum allowable content was precisely aluminum paint, as You see on scan page original Soviet paint chips catalogue:

 Exactly!

 

About book.

I completely agree with @KRK4m

on what was said about the drawings in this book.

Also me unknown any documents that would confirm the Red stars with a yellow outline on MiG-15

"8170":

Moreover, according to the Official regulations on the USSR insignia, the 

outline of Red stars could be either white or silver /"NMF".

Therefore, while color photos

MiG-15

"8170" have not been published, 

Red stars with a yellow outline

 are more than doubtful.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

 

There are more "strange" errors - the codes of the East German "9" as well as of the Polish "346" should definitively be RED, for example... 

 

[Aardvark]

3 hours ago, Diego said:

There are more "strange" errors - the codes of the East German "9" as well as of the Polish "346" should definitively be RED, for example... 

 

MiG-15

"8170" Red stars with a yellow outline migration on many publications but what can be forgiven as a mistake to Western authors can hardly be forgiven to the authors of the country where this aircraft is designed.The same applies to airplanes in Poland and East Germany, because if you are making a serious book you should check the accuracy of the information  if you do not, then this is called russian word халтура ("haltura")- that is, work done carelessly with very low quality.

 

B.R.

Serge 

 

 

[modelldoc]

Red Stars  with a yellow outline are correct!

 

Only Guard Squadron have they used.

You can find this also in later times on different planes.

Here is a model kit from the former USSR, a MiG-21 complete with the original decals, 

yellow outline red stars:

 

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/12990362204/in/photolist-kMV179-9kKabQ-T5Ls9X-rWMvSX-9rvpjv-9q2ryK

 

 

modelldoc

[Aardvark]

35 minutes ago, modelldoc said:

Red Stars  with a yellow outline are correct!

Only Guard Squadron have they used.

Link on official Soviet MoD Please!

 

 

39 minutes ago, modelldoc said:

Here is a model kit from the former USSR, a MiG-21 complete with the original decals, 

yellow outline red stars:

 

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/12990362204/in/photolist-kMV179-9kKabQ-T5Ls9X-rWMvSX-9rvpjv-9q2ryK

It's are official model MiG-21 from Soviet MoD with signature ministry of Defence? 😁

If no, than it's decal a private initiative that has nothing to do with reality. Links to witness statements without supporting photos and/or official documents are not a weighty argument.

As an example:

- on Aerohobby (now Aviation & Time) magazine in article about Su-17 from Afghanistan war published colour profile Su-17 with non standard Red Star insignia without anything 

outline (also this version you may found in Su-17 decal from Kanga). This profile was made according to witnesses, but since its publication in 1994 no photos or other documents have been found confirming such this non-standard Red Stars.

- decal on MiG-21 from Kanga contain variant completely black Soviet MiG-21bis from Mongolia.....but  since 1991 when manufacturing decal no photos or other documents have been found confirming such this non-standard overall black MiG-21.

e.t.c. e.t.c

 

B.R.

Serge

[modelldoc]

See:

 

Military Aircraft Insignia of the World by John Cochrane and Stuart Elliot, published bey Airlife 1998

 

page 100, chapter two

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781853108730/Military-Aircraft-Insignia-World-Cochrane-1853108731/plp

 

modelldoc

[Aardvark]

5 hours ago, modelldoc said:

See:

 

Military Aircraft Insignia of the World by John Cochrane and Stuart Elliot, published bey Airlife 1998

 

page 100, chapter two

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781853108730/Military-Aircraft-Insignia-World-Cochrane-1853108731/plp

 

modelldoc

O.K....Page 100, chapter two...and so what?

Page contains scan official Soviet document  or colour photo?

 

I repeat:

20 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Link on official Soviet MoD Please!

How to write more?

 

My opinion is based on the following official documents:

"USSR Ministry of Defense
 Air Force

 

 For administrative use

 

 Regulations on the identification marks of aircraft of the Armed Forces of the USSR

 

Military Publishing

 Enacted by order of the Air Force

 

Civil Code of June 20, 1974 No. 120.

 

 Order of the Red Banner of Labor
 MILITARY PUBLISHING HOUSE OF THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE OF THE USSR
 MOSCOW-1975"

....... 

"These Regulations establish identification marks and the procedure for applying them to aircraft of the aircraft of the Armed Forces of the USSR.

 

 The provision applies to all aviation of the Armed Forces of the USSR, the KGB Border Troops under the Council of Ministers of the USSR, the Ministry of Aviation Industry and DOSAAF of the USSR.

 With the release of this Regulation, the Regulation on the identification marks of aircraft of the USSR Air Force, Military Publishing House, 1955, is canceled*."

.....

"3. Flights of aircraft in the airspace of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics without identification marks or with identification marks that do not comply with this Regulation are strictly prohibited.  Persons violating this rule are held liable."

.....

"6. The main identification mark identifies the aircraft belonging to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  The main identification mark of airplanes is the FIVE-POINTED STAR of red color, bordered on the outer contour of white or aluminum color, and then the red stripes (Appendix 1)."

.....

"14. Monitoring compliance with this Regulation is assigned to the commanders of aviation units of the Armed Forces of the USSR and the Chairman of the Central Committee of DOSAAF of the USSR."

Appendix 1

Full text with scan on Russian:

http://www.airforce.ru/content/documents/214-polozhenie-ob-opoznavatel-nyh-znakah-letatel-nyh-apparatov-aviacii-vooruzhyonnyh-sil-sssr/

 

 

 

Total.

Red Star was insignia for all (except civil)

flying objects in Soviet airspace.

Red Star have standard  with a only white or silver  outline...no yellow, no blue, no green, no orange, no brown e.t.c. outline.

Without standard (or with non standard) Red Star you could not fly in Soviet airspace. If someone committed such a violation, then he should have been responsible for it.

Responsibility could be administrative (monetary fine, demotion, or vice versa a delay in the assignment of the next military rank) or criminal.

Compliance with such requirements was monitored by the higher command and, if appropriate measures were not taken to respond to detected violations, search measures could already be applied to the higher command.

 

But ofcource, John Cochrane and Stuart Elliot, know more than officials Soviet MoD documentation, ofcource....😆

____________

* - but maybe there is something about the Red Stars  with a yellow outline in the 1955 position?  In this topic:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_40637.html

there are scans ... there all the same: "FIVE-POINTED STAR of red color, bordered on the outer contour of white or aluminum color".

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

You write:

21 hours ago, modelldoc said:

Only Guard Squadron have they used.

Supposed it's correct, just  suppose. But in Soviet Union was many Guard Squadron, in Squadron was many aircraft....

but we did not see a single photo of confirmation of the aircraft

Red Stars  with a yellow outline in

this topic.....except model photo.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Aardvark

[modelldoc]

Okay, look here:

 

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/soviet_moscow_military_distric1.html

 

The 234th Guard Fighter Air Regiment flew with MiG-21 Fishbed and a yellow outline.

 

Or here:

 

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/166th_regiment_pvo_eng.html

 

The 166th Guard Fighter Air Regiment PVO’s Su-15 ‘Falgon-D’.

 

modelldoc

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, modelldoc said:

Okay, look here:

 

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/soviet_moscow_military_distric1.html

 

The 234th Guard Fighter Air Regiment flew with MiG-21 Fishbed and a yellow outline.

Look where? Here:

?😁

On this poor quality photo after scan we need see Red Star with yellow outline? And where, on aircraft from Kubinka base airfield? Top base where show aircraft for government Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, West country e.t.c.

In the elite military unit do not comply with official documents?

If this happened in Kubinka, then the very next day those who did it instead of Moscow would be somewhere in a small military base outside the Arctic Circle, where the frost is 60 degrees Celsius and instead of female society there are only polar bears and seals....and with personal ( and his aircraft, brush, airbrush, paint/thinner barrel😁😁) Kubinka base

all the higher authorities would have a long and long act of love in an unconventional form, for prevention,😁 not to do this again, they could not even think about it !!!!

😁😁

This is the same as saying that on the planes of the Red Arrows group on the British flag the color is not blue but green, but yellow instead of red.

Moreover, have Russian book about history 234 GvIAP the author worked with archives, veterans .... if there was even the slightest hint of non-standard stars, this would certainly have been written in the book ... but no, there is nothing like that.

 

Next....

1 hour ago, modelldoc said:

Or here:

 

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/166th_regiment_pvo_eng.html

 

The 166th Guard Fighter Air Regiment PVO’s Su-15 ‘Falgon-D’.

this yellow (?):

😁

This well known photo but in b&w variants.....and what we see....yellowish missile??? But on all Russian standard combat missile - white!!! 

In a photograph, this is called "white balance". Bring it back to normal and all theories about yellow will disappear!  😁😁By the way, on other Su-15 that I personally touched with my hands, the Red

Star was with a silver outline.🤗

But this photo Su-15

also interesting the fact that they have a very rare gun GP-9 under the fuselage.

 

Total. Again there is no evidence.

🤗

 

But I think I’m guessing where the wave comes from about the Red Stars with yellow outline. If trust this site:

http://wio.ru/simbols/simbrus.htm

Red Stars with yellow outline as variant was from 1918 year to.....let's say in 1943 there were already 100% of them. Because:

"Order of the commander of the Red Army No. 3196263 of 9.9.43
 In the period up to 20.9.43 identification marks - border red stars with a white stripe 5 cm wide and 1 cm red. Execution to be reported on 21.9.43."

 

B.R.

Serge 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Aardvark

[modelldoc]

Okay, everybody lives in his own world.

 

modelldoc