Ratch Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) I'm looking to build the Airfix 1/600 HMS Cossack as HMS Matabele https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Matabele_(F26) The disruptive camo scheme is attractive to me, but what colours is it? Also I've read that the gun in the X position was replaced with a twin 4 inch AA gun, but which is X position? I'm really a land lubber and don't have much idea about floaty things. Edited January 30, 2020 by Ratch spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonhoff Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 From the Bow - A Turret, B Turret From the Stern - Y Turret, X Turret... So in this case it's the one that's second from the back that can fire over Y Turret. HTH IanJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonhoff Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I've just read through the Wikipedia article - If you're doing the AA gun alteration then the second funnel and mainmast need altering too. IanJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 13 minutes ago, Bonhoff said: If you're doing the AA gun alteration then the second funnel and mainmast need altering too. What to? Or can I build it OOB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonhoff Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 It's in the Wikipedia article..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Its all very vague. The funnel was shortened by how much? What did the 285 gunnery radar look like? What did the mainmast look like after alteration? You know what its like, if I guess someone is bound to say its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our Ned Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) To make it less vague, study relevant photographs! There are some of MATABELE's port (left) side in the Imperial War Museum's collection (eg https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140701 and https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205120190 (also available in the Wikipedia article). Note that her starboard side wore an entirely different pattern; photos of this are much less common, but it was almost identical to ASHANTI's starboard side (see https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140130). Interpreting colours from black and white images is not easy, and, over the years, there have been a number of attempts to do so! RDF (early term for what we now call radar) Type 285 is the row of Yagi aerials on top of the rangefinder on top of the bridge - it was fitted to most RN destroyers during the war, and there are plenty of photos showing it available online. RDF Type 286 is the fixed antenna visible at the foremasthead in some photos of MATABELE. The beam view I linked to shows the extent of the after funnel height reduction, and the port bow photo shows the "goalpost" aerial spreader which replaced the mainmast. Edited January 30, 2020 by Our Ned 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Ratch said: what colours is it? For colours, I'll always call 'ghostbusters', no, that's not right... @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies 'cos he's the man. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 This was discussed on Steelnavy recently. The short answer is "unknown" but @dickrd made a guess which is based upon another design which is known; that being C.A.F.O.679/42 Plate 35 showing a Tribal Class in MS1, B5, MS3 and MS4 resulting in a fairly drab scheme common in late 1941 and 1942. This scheme was completely different port and starboard as noted above. I did start making a sketch of it based on starboard side photos of Ashanti which is in a similar but not completely identical scheme, but the scheme is a fiddly pain in the proverbial frankly and it was taking up a lot of time to make minimal progress which wasn't going to help me service actual money-making endeavours so I parked it. This took a fair bit of time and as you can see there's very little to show for it - and that's starting from the Tribal sketch I already had! 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickrd Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) As mentioned by Jamie, this is what I said when this question came up on Steelnavy: This scheme was worn by Matabele for about three months: August, September, October 1941. This was an Admiralty Disruptive design of the early type. In fact it was Leamington Job Number 31 which means it was designed roughly July 1941 (HMS Prince of Wales was Job 32). As a Leamington scheme, the designers there would have specified the use of (at least some) paints from the MS&B range which made their first appearance at the start of 1941 and lasted until mid-1943. There are at least four tones of paint visible on Matebele. The general drab appearance of Matabele (and Ashanti) in this scheme suggests MS4 as the base colour (rather than the lighter 507C). This seems to be quite common in schemes produced by Leamington in the months immediately before and after Job 31. The darkest tone we see (looking almost black in photos) would doubtless have been MS1. What is inbetween then becomes a bit of a game to deduce from B&W photos, working with the reflection factors of the paints then available. You have invited guesses so I will suggest B5 and MS3, ie overall the same palette of colours as in the subsequent, simplified Tribal Class Dark Admiralty Disruptive Type design promulgated in early April 1942 (CAFO 679/42, Plate 35) which specified MS1, B5, MS3 and MS4. As was common in the painting-on of Class designs, there were subtle differences between the application of the design on Ashanti and Matabele both port and starboard. There are other photos of Matabele’s starboard side in this scheme. I have seen a good aerial one taken 13. 9 41. This one is readily accessible but sadly not that wonderful: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140156 Edited January 30, 2020 by dickrd 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Thanks for your input guys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 As I don't generally use enamels (SWMBO objects to the smell) I have guessed at these colours: Vallejo Model Color 70867 164 Dark Bluegrey as MS 1 AK Interactive AK5036 B5 Dark Blue Grey as it says its a match for B 5 Vallejo Model Color 70907 153 Pale Greyblue for MS 3 Vallejo Model Color 70870 158 Medium Sea Grey for MS 4 here's the swatch. In a rough disruptive scheme: Feedback appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, Ratch said: As I don't generally use enamels (SWMBO objects to the smell) I have guessed at these colours: Vallejo Model Color 70867 164 Dark Bluegrey as MS 1 AK Interactive AK5036 B5 Dark Blue Grey as it says its a match for B 5 Vallejo Model Color 70907 153 Pale Greyblue for MS 3 Vallejo Model Color 70870 158 Medium Sea Grey for MS 4 here's the swatch. In a rough disruptive scheme: Feedback appreciated. MS1 was just a sniff lighter than pure black, and leaned towards green. B5 should be bluer and darker. MS3 is the next darkest, but only a little lighter than B5 - it's difficult to eyeball though partly because humans are very poor at judging tone and partly because it's easy to be thrown by the intensity of B5's chroma. MS4 is the lightest of the four, still greenish in caste but only just. Medium Sea Grey is slightly darker than MS4, but not by much. It's also bias towards blue. It could be adjusted with the very sparing addition of yellow. The MS3 needs a rethink - it's a greenish grey and darker than you have. AK Interactive's B5 is based on Snyder & Short's which we disproved. Its tone is roughly correct for MS3 but the hue is wrong. About that intensity of green instead would be about right for MS3. B5 was Ultramarine based - fairly strong blue leaning towards red rather than greenish; i.e. it has a lavendar-ish quality. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/0927/files/Royal_Navy_colours_of_World_War_Two_-_Standard_Camouflage_Colours_1941_to_1943.pdf?4510537543498049762 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 Thanks for the advice @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies I'll see what I've got 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 Here's my first swatch with another option below: I won't call them out yet (no influence) but from the left MS1 - B5 - three options for MS3 - MS4 Near enough is good enough for me, I don't expect absolute matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 All 3 options for MS3 are still lighter than your MS4 candidate. Your B5 looks servicable though. Forgetting about the hue for a minute, in monochrome they should go: MS1 B5 MS3 MS4 The model will look really weird if the tones are switched places 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: The model will look really weird if the tones are switched places I see what you mean with that last picture (pictures are so much easier to read than words) and given that I don't know which colours go where, I'd be judging their position/application on the tonal variations of the b/w photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) https://wartimeni.com/person/charles-kelly/wwiini-hms-matabele/ What is the box-shaped antenna thingy on top of the mast? Edited February 2, 2020 by Ratch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 I thought I'd spend another hour or so on this: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelholic Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 The thingy at the masthead is the antennae for Radar 286M fitted in May 1941 Also at this time she had the after funnel shortened and mainmast removed. Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 Thanks Tom, I guessed the rear one was the goalpost 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 If anyone is interested, I now have a splendid photograph of the port side of HMS Matabele in this scheme, so I shall continue with that illustration above. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted June 30, 2020 Author Share Posted June 30, 2020 I'd be interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robgizlu Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Me too - Thanks Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now