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I'm looking to build the Airfix 1/600 HMS Cossack as HMS Matabele

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Matabele_(F26)

The disruptive camo scheme is attractive to me, but what colours is it?

Also I've read that the gun in the X position was replaced with a twin 4 inch AA gun, but which is X position?

I'm really a land lubber and don't have much idea about floaty things.

Edited by Ratch
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From the Bow - A Turret, B Turret 

 

From the Stern - Y Turret, X Turret...

 

So in this case it's the one that's second from the back that can fire over Y Turret. 

 

HTH IanJ 

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I've just read through the Wikipedia article - If you're doing the AA gun alteration then the second funnel and mainmast need altering too.

 

IanJ

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13 minutes ago, Bonhoff said:

If you're doing the AA gun alteration then the second funnel and mainmast need altering too.

What to? Or can I build it OOB?

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Its all very vague. The funnel was shortened by how much? What did the 285 gunnery radar look like? What did the mainmast look like after alteration? You know what its like, if I guess someone is bound to say its wrong.

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To make it less vague, study relevant photographs!  There are some of MATABELE's port (left) side in the Imperial War Museum's collection (eg https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140701 and https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205120190 (also available in the Wikipedia article).  Note that her starboard side wore an entirely different pattern; photos of this are much less common, but it was almost identical to ASHANTI's starboard side (see https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140130).  Interpreting colours from black and white images is not easy, and, over the years, there have been a number of attempts to do so!

 

RDF (early term for what we now call radar) Type 285 is the row of Yagi aerials on top of the rangefinder on top of the bridge - it was fitted to most RN destroyers during the war, and there are plenty of photos showing it available online.  RDF Type 286 is the fixed antenna visible at the foremasthead in some photos of MATABELE.  The beam view I linked to shows the extent of the after funnel height reduction, and the port bow photo shows the "goalpost" aerial spreader which replaced the mainmast.

Edited by Our Ned
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This was discussed on Steelnavy recently. The short answer is "unknown" but @dickrd made a guess which is based upon another design which is known; that being C.A.F.O.679/42 Plate 35 showing a Tribal Class in MS1, B5, MS3 and MS4 resulting in a fairly drab scheme common in late 1941 and 1942.

 

This scheme was completely different port and starboard as noted above. I did start making a sketch of it based on starboard side photos of Ashanti which is in a similar but not completely identical scheme, but the scheme is a fiddly pain in the proverbial frankly and it was taking up a lot of time to make minimal progress which wasn't going to help me service actual money-making endeavours so I parked it.

 

This took a fair bit of time and as you can see there's very little to show for it - and that's starting from the Tribal sketch I already had!

1b9eee19-5a31-45e4-bfa4-90960346ae32.png

 

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As mentioned by Jamie, this is what I said when this question came up on Steelnavy:

 

This scheme was worn by Matabele for about three months: August, September, October 1941. This was an Admiralty Disruptive design of the early type. In fact it was Leamington Job Number 31 which means it was designed roughly July 1941 (HMS Prince of Wales was Job 32). As a Leamington scheme, the designers there would have specified the use of (at least some) paints from the MS&B range which made their first appearance at the start of 1941 and lasted until mid-1943.

There are at least four tones of paint visible on Matebele. The general drab appearance of Matabele (and Ashanti) in this scheme suggests MS4 as the base colour (rather than the lighter 507C). This seems to be quite common in schemes produced by Leamington in the months immediately before and after Job 31. The darkest tone we see (looking almost black in photos) would doubtless have been MS1. What is inbetween then becomes a bit of a game to deduce from B&W photos, working with the reflection factors of the paints then available. You have invited guesses so I will suggest B5 and MS3, ie overall the same palette of colours as in the subsequent, simplified Tribal Class Dark Admiralty Disruptive Type design promulgated in early April 1942 (CAFO 679/42, Plate 35) which specified MS1, B5, MS3 and MS4.

As was common in the painting-on of Class designs, there were subtle differences between the application of the design on Ashanti and Matabele both port and starboard.

There are other photos of Matabele’s starboard side in this scheme. I have seen a good aerial one taken 13. 9 41. This one is readily accessible but sadly not that wonderful: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140156

Edited by dickrd
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As I don't generally use enamels (SWMBO objects to the smell) I have guessed at these colours:

Vallejo Model Color 70867 164 Dark Bluegrey as MS 1

AK Interactive AK5036 B5 Dark Blue Grey as it says its a match for B 5 

Vallejo Model Color 70907 153 Pale Greyblue for MS 3 

Vallejo Model Color 70870 158 Medium Sea Grey for MS 4

here's the swatch.
49467463533_25a0f7c024_c.jpg
In a rough disruptive scheme:
49468183947_9c590906b9_c.jpg
Feedback appreciated.

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17 minutes ago, Ratch said:

As I don't generally use enamels (SWMBO objects to the smell) I have guessed at these colours:

Vallejo Model Color 70867 164 Dark Bluegrey as MS 1

AK Interactive AK5036 B5 Dark Blue Grey as it says its a match for B 5 

Vallejo Model Color 70907 153 Pale Greyblue for MS 3 

Vallejo Model Color 70870 158 Medium Sea Grey for MS 4

here's the swatch.
49467463533_25a0f7c024_c.jpg
In a rough disruptive scheme:
49468183947_9c590906b9_c.jpg
Feedback appreciated.

 

MS1 was just a sniff lighter than pure black, and leaned towards green. B5 should be bluer and darker. MS3 is the next darkest, but only a little lighter than B5 - it's difficult to eyeball though partly because humans are very poor at judging tone and partly because it's easy to be thrown by the intensity of B5's chroma. MS4 is the lightest of the four, still greenish in caste but only just.

 

Medium Sea Grey is slightly darker than MS4, but not by much. It's also bias towards blue. It could be adjusted with the very sparing addition of yellow.

The MS3 needs a rethink - it's a greenish grey and darker than you have.

AK Interactive's B5 is based on Snyder & Short's which we disproved. Its tone is roughly correct for MS3 but the hue is wrong. About that intensity of green instead would be about right for MS3.

 

B5 was Ultramarine based - fairly strong blue leaning towards red rather than greenish; i.e. it has a lavendar-ish quality.

 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/0927/files/Royal_Navy_colours_of_World_War_Two_-_Standard_Camouflage_Colours_1941_to_1943.pdf?4510537543498049762

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All 3 options for MS3 are still lighter than your MS4 candidate.

 

Your B5 looks servicable though.

 

Forgetting about the hue for a minute, in monochrome they should go:

 

         MS1                     B5                    MS3                    MS4

e866da0c-02fa-4d12-8d22-ff48a8fa9855.pngc5e2850b-10bd-4dd0-a1af-3547105d75ff.png621f513b-b985-4359-a752-7207d4caa9f8.png7034bfe0-c41f-4140-bdb7-24ce7b2b437d.png

NARN28rgb_3ee1fe43-5df2-4d8b-8751-4f81bbRN07_5caa0865-48c0-4b20-a39d-d79b3854d42NARN30rgb_a7b082ac-d938-43c5-a45a-0af786NARN31rgb_23390a73-09c5-472f-878a-5ccc1a

 

 

resized_968120a1-0e3c-44a5-99d0-eaf4adea

 

The model will look really weird if the tones are switched places 

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3 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The model will look really weird if the tones are switched places 

I see what you mean with that last picture (pictures are so much easier to read than words) and given that I don't know which colours go where, I'd be judging their position/application on the tonal variations of the b/w photos.

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The thingy at the masthead is the antennae for Radar 286M fitted in May 1941 Also at this time she had the after funnel shortened and mainmast removed.

Tom

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  • 4 months later...

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