Norwegian Gladiator 433 Colours

[Vingtor]

Having just talked to Cato on the phone, he says that the detailed colour information in his book, quoted in Andy's initial post (and repeated beneath), most presumably is from a document contained at the Norwegian National Archives. Fortunately, the archives is just a 30 minutes drive from my home. Unfortunately, their opening hours coincide with my working hours. They are open a few hours the first Saturday each month though, which was ... today. The next open Saturday is 7 March, on which I have planned to go skiing in the mountains. I will find time some day.

 

"On the experimental aircraft, Gladiator 433, areas of the wings and fuselage (the dark areas) are partially covered with brown-green (khaki) and grey, wavy lines that blend into one another. The remainder of the fuselage sides and bottom (the light areas) are painted in a mix of matte silver and light blue, intended to make the aircraft as inconspicuous as possible when seen against the sky. Areas of the top of the wings (the light areas) are instead painted grey or grey-green." (Cato Guhnfeldt - Fornebu 9. April, published by Wings, Oslo, 1990).'

 

Cato says that the expenses involved indicates that paint was acquired from outside the Army Air Arm stores. Which in turn means that the colours could be any hue.

[JWM]

In photo 3 from post #25, just below the canopy you see overpraying result of light colour over dark one. 

So for me it is just green snake like pattern on alu dope with large areas oversparayed with white/ The thin layer of white makes available some "shadow" of green snake-like structures below it...

Cheers

J-W

P.S.

I ve noticed post #26 already when I posted my post. I will not discuss with the eye witness testimony, so I give up my hypo...

Edited February 1, 2020 by JWM
added P.S.

[Crimea River]

Thanks to everyone who has responded and provided input and especially to Nils for posting more photos of this unusual bird. I had thought that there was only one other photo in existence but to see FIVE more, and especially one from the port side, is magnificent!

 

Nils, thank-you for posting these. Your offer to visit the archives is also appreciated and I understand the time constraints involved. It will be a while before I get to the paint stage anyway so if you do get the opportunity to get more clarity on the scheme and colours when it is convenient for you then that could add to our knowledge and perhaps clear up some interpretive thinking here. I'm still a bit perplexed by the phrase from Catos's book "areas of the wings and fuselage (the dark areas) are partially covered with brown-green (khaki) and grey, wavy lines that blend into one another". This seems to suggest that there are two colours that make up the wave pattern in the "dark areas" and I don't really see that from the photos. Also, JWM's suggestion that there is a light colour applied over a dark one in the light area of the fuselage in Photo 3 is interesting but I'm not sure that I agree with the conclusion. If the underlying colour was the original silver dope then, depending on how the light hits it and the nature of the areas being reflected, the silver could look darker than the adjacent sprayed-on colour, especially if these were a matte light blue or even white. I'm still inclined to accept that a light wave pattern was applied over the silver on the entire fuselage and on the wing undersides. On two of the new photos with the wing undersides partly visible, there is indication of colour variation, supporting the statement in Cato's book about the light blue and silver on the wing undersides and fuselage "light areas".

 

On the areas of the wing upper surfaces that do not have the dark waves on it, I don't think I see any colour variations that might suggest a wave pattern but these areas do appear to me to be darker than the base fuselage tones. I remain of the opinion, therefore, that the wing upper surfaces were given a coat of a solid colour. Cato says that "areas of the top of the wings (the light areas) are instead painted grey or grey-green" and that, to me, is supported by the photos.

 

Based on all this, I'd still be comfortable with starting with an entirely silver aircraft, painting a light blue wave pattern over the entire model, except for the wing upper surfaces, which would get a solid grey/green colour, perhaps Grigio Mimetico . There would then be a dark green (the Norwegian green FS 24052 as suggested by Nils) wave pattern applied in a disruptive fashion on the fuselage and wing uppers. There remains the question of whether there was a second colour, a dark grey, that also made up this darker pattern. No insignia colours would be applied anywhere except for the fuselage red/white/blue bands

 

On a separate note, it will be possible to roughly scale the fuselage insignia bands from the photos but are the actual dimensions or width ratios known?

 

The propeller is also worth talking about. It appears to be black with yellow tips. The spinner cap seems to be gloss black. Thoughts?

 

I'll be starting this build shortly and will post it in the WIP area once I get some progress pics done.

 

Thanks all.

 

 

[Ed Russell]

6 hours ago, Crimea River said:

starting with an entirely silver aircraft, painting a light blue wave pattern over the entire model, except for the wing upper surfaces, which would get a solid grey/green colour, perhaps Grigio Mimetico . There would then be a dark green (the Norwegian green FS 24052 as suggested by Nils) wave pattern applied in a disruptive fashion on the fuselage and wing uppers. There remains the question of whether there was a second colour, a dark grey, that also made up this darker pattern. No insignia colours would be applied anywhere except for the fuselage red/white/blue bands

I think that is what I would do too. Certainly a light colour on the upper wings.

[Vingtor]

I quite agree with your comments, Crimea River.

 

Note that the fabric sample that I have, that matches FS 24052, names the colour as "Khaki".

 

The fuselage band flag stripe ratios should be 6-1-2-1-6. I will check if there is specified a total width.

 

Nils

[Graham Boak]

I'm with JWM.  The upper surface of the wings display the same dark lattice pattern as the fuselage.  The fairly random wave pattern of the oversprayed lighter colour is much as seen on other Norwegian aircraft, where there has been no suggestion of anything other than white.  It may well be that the contrast of the photo is hiding evidence of more than one dark colour, or that the lighter overspray is indeed a pale blue rather than a white, but this may then cast doubt on the claims that white was used on other types.  Though what happens in an experiment, especially one regarded as too expensive, may not be continued as later practice.

 

It is difficult to argue against contemporary documentation, but that the upper surface of the wings display the same lattice pattern as the fuselage contradicts the description of one solid colour for these surfaces, showing that the document is either inaccurate or perhaps a plan that was not followed in practice.   To my mind, the dark lattice over Aluminium with a light overspray of white is the simplest explanation and therefore the most likely.  

[Ed Russell]

I see a bit of confusion, some (most) of it mine!

I would start with the whole aircraft in aluminium. I would then spray a random pattern over the whole aircraft  (apart from uppersurfaces) including the undersurfaces. The written words were light blue so I would go with this.

I would then spray the upper surfaces with a solid colour - maybe quite light grey-green as per the written words. Then I would spray  brown-green (khaki) as per the pattern of wavy stripes in the photo.

It would look good and I would hope it was accurate!

[Crimea River]

Nils, thanks so much for the ratios of the flag stripes.

 

Graham, the dark waves on the wing uppers are not in question and they look to be the same as the dark areas of the fuselage. The light areas on the wing uppers appear to me to be a solid colour and this is consistent with the description by Cato, who distinguishes between the dark and light areas on the top of the wings and says "Areas of the top of the wings (the light areas) are instead painted grey or grey-green."

 

Ed, agree 100% and until new or better info emerges, this will be the plan. 

[Graham Boak]

That may be, but I think the light areas on the wings would look monochrome compared to the fuselage just because of the different angles of the light.  Difficult to argue against documentation, but the light areas do appear very light to be a grey or a green.  A light blue maybe.  Perhaps this is just playing devil's advocate.

[Vingtor]

One thing that separates the Gladiator camouflage from camouflage on other Norwegian aircraft is that the camouflage on the Gladiator was a "controlled" experiment carried out at the Army Air Arm main workshop. With time to plan and document the work and experience. The other aircraft, Fokkers and Tiger Moths of the army and He 115 and MF-11 of the navy, were camouflaged in the field after the German assault, far from any airfield or service infrastructure. Assumedly with paint they found at local farms.

[Ed Russell]

There is an article in the April 2020 Aeroplane magazine with historical information about the Norwegian Gladiators. It draws on archival interviews with the pilots - it's quite interesting.

[Vingtor]

I found an article in an old (1983) issue of the Norwegian Aviation Historical Society newsletter. It refers to information from a Mr. Rolf Bergersen at Kjeller.

 

The silver (aluminium) base colour was retained.

Light blue stripes were applied to the undersides.

Upper sides of of wings, tailplanes, fuselage sides and upper surfaces were painted in the same irregular stripes in beige and light blue over silver.

The upper sides of both pairs of wings, fuselage aft of the cockpit and the fin were painted dark khaki.

 

The colours were described in a Kjeller document of 1939 as the same colours as used on the Capronis (Ca.310): Silver blue, beige and green.

 

Nils

[Crimea River]

Thanks for keeping us updated guys. Ed, I will look for that issue - it may be in my local shops now. Nils, good info on the colours though I'll need some time to interpret that description against the photos you kindly provided earlier. My build is underway though I'm still a week or two away form the painting stage.

 

Andy

[Vingtor]

Given the "new" information, and the Caproni references, the colours does not match too well. That is, if the Caproni references are correct.

 

The silver/aluminium base colour should be without any problems.

The Caproni underside colour is Grigio Mimetico, which is a light/medium grey (FS36293). This can not be described as light blue. There was no standard light blue for Norwegian Army Air Arm aircraft.

The beige stripes could possibly have been Giallo Mimetico 3, which is a light khaki / sand (FS33434).

The dark khaki upper side stripes might either have been Bruno Mimetico, a brown colour (FS30215), or or the standard Norwegian Army Air Arm dark green, which is named "khaki" on my fabric samples. Although there are variations between the fabric samples, these are all darker than the Italian brown colour. On the photos, the stripes seem rather dark, so I would suggest the dark green here.

 

My fabric sample from a Tiger Moth, which was built at Kjeller, and for which there would gave been plenty of stocks. For this one, FS34052 is a close match. Other samples, which are for older aircraft, are slightly lighter and have more brown pigments.

 

 

[Crimea River]

Thanks again Nils. I have reviewed all of the foregoing discussions in detail and there remain several inconsistencies. To facilitate the discussion, I've prepared the below colour legend that points to the various, potentially different schemes and colours on this aircraft. Though I've identified 7 potentially different colour combinations, it's possible, if not likely, that some of these will be duplicated.

 

 

After I had prepared the above diagram, it became evident that I should have also given the undersides a unique number because there is conflicting interpretation of the underside vs the fuselage sides that I've shown as #1. There are two written narratives that I will compare in the below summary. The first is the description written in the book Fornebu 9. April by Cato Guhnfeldt, referred to as "Guhnfeldt" below. The second is the 1939 document by Mr. Rolf Bergersen at Kjeller noted by Nil, referred to as "Kjeller" below. I've not had the opportunity to include any new info from the Aeroplane article mentioned by Ed. So, without further ado.....

 

Undersides 

 

Both Guhnfeldt and Kjeller agree that the undersides have light blue "stripes" over the base silver dope. The fact that both say light blue would suggest that there was no grey here.

 

Area 1

 

Guhnfeldt treats this area the same as the undersides, saying that it is a “a mix of matte silver and light blue”. However, Kjeller distinguishes area 1 from the undersides, stating that "...fuselage sides and upper surfaces were painted in the same irregular stripes in beige and light blue over silver". So we now have the introduction of beige, which might be Giallo Mimetico 3, in addition to light blue on the fuselage sides. In my view, whereas the photos posted to date don't prove the existence of two different colours over the silver, it would be difficult to distinguish beige and light blue stripes in a B&W photograph and so this possibility can not be ruled out.

 

Areas 2 and 3

 

Both Gunfeldt and Kjeller do not distinguish these as separate, so I will treat them the same as well. However, the descriptions do not agree. Guhnfeldt says these areas are "partially covered with brown-green (khaki) and grey, wavy lines that blend into one another.” Kjeller dose not mention grey at all, but rather says that these areas were "were painted dark khaki." Nils notes that the standard NAAA dark green was identified as "khaki". It remains that we need to understand what Guhnfeldt means by including the grey with the khaki and how they "blend in to one another". The statement doesn't seem to be supported by the photos.

 

Areas 4 and 5

 

Both Gunfeldt and Kjeller do not distinguish these as separate, so I will treat them the same as well. However, the descriptions do not agree. Guhnfeldt says that “Areas of the top of the wings (the light areas) are instead painted grey or grey-green." Kjeller, however, says  these are the same as area 1, saying "Upper sides of wings, tailplanes, fuselage sides and upper surfaces were painted in the same irregular stripes in beige and light blue over silver." Looking at the photos, I tend to favour the solid colour idea. Maybe these are indeed grey as Guhnfeldt says and maybe that grey is Grigio Mimetico.

 

Areas 6 and 7

 

Both of these are treated the same way as Areas 2 and 3 so no separation is warranted.

 

With that said, I will wait and see what, if anything, the Aeroplane article brings to the analysis.

 

Andy

[Vingtor]

There is a profile drawing of Gladiator 433 in the April issue of Scale Aircraft Modelling. However not very accurate.

[Ed Russell]

Reproduced here for purpose of review

No, it's not quite right!

No author for article or artist for profile are apparent or I would have given them a credit.

[Graham Boak]

The text for the article is badly flawed too.  It appears to be entirely directed at.the Mk.1 but has no mention I see of Marks.  It is chronologically jumbled with Gladiator squadrons going to France and fighting in May placed  before the one going to Norway and the RAF's first victory in October 1940!  This at least is a simple error for 1939, but had the history been sensibly placed this would have been clear.  The victors, 607 Sq.,, then went to France but converted to Hurricanes in April.  The other, 615 Sq, was converting but I doubt they flew many  if any, missions in Gladiators.  These were Mk.IIIs as shown in at least one photo of a burnt out example.  (607 had Mk.Is.). I have seen a reference to a Gladiator intercepting a German recce aircraft well behind the lines, but this presumably was a scramble from a local staff or maintenance unit.

[Crimea River]

Thanks for posting that Ed. Yes, lots wrong with that profile so will ignore.

 

I am close to having to make a decision on the colour scheme for my model. No doubt some new info shows up while my incorrectly coloured paint is drying!

 

[Crimea River]

I've made a decision on the scheme now based on all of the foregoing. Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

Start with entire aircraft in base silver

Spray light blue wave pattern over entire aircraft, topside and underside

On entire top side, supplement the light blue waves with Giallo Mimetico 3 waves still allowing some silver to poke through (no solid colour on wing tops)

Finish with dark green resembling FS34052 chain patterns on fuselage and upper wings

 

Build thread:

 

 

[Vingtor]

Good decision. I think I would have done the same.
By "top side", do you refer to the wings only, or also fuselage top side?

[Crimea River]

Thanks Nils. Fuselage as well. 

[top turret toddler]

Does anyone happen to know what the "warning" text on the norwegian Gladiator skis read? 

[Vingtor]

6 minutes ago, top turret toddler said:

Does anyone happen to know what the "warning" text on the norwegian Gladiator skis read? 

Yes. Take a look further up in this thread.

[top turret toddler]

Ok, thankyou. I have tried to look at Gladiator pictures in the past but did not manage to get a good reading. What pictures did you use for this and was there any local variations?

Edited April 23, 2020 by top turret toddler