perdu Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Nix to rivits, gottit? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 11 minutes ago, junglierating said: Hmm top risk assessment there thenĀ Back in the day, risk schmisk! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 7 minutes ago, perdu said: Nix to rivits, gottit? Rivets per current Emperors New Clothes no! Ā Rivets per this kit YES! Ā Far more realistic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 The rivets on the Belvedere airframe are all of a shallow dome configuration and although the lines are visible the individual domes merge down nicely into the paint surface Ā I mentioned that Tomo and I spent over an hour just examining her in Hendon and I have to say I have no qualms in eliminating the pointy peaks on the kit's surface Ā That said I am very pleased to note that in general Airfix's rivetter was obviously very young in 1960 and tackled his task with aplomb and and a clear idea where to put panels, the kit being generally accurate in line placement Ā Pity the tail fin is too short by an eighth of an inch and the fuselage roof intakes are too far back, by the same Ā Looks like razor saw time approaches... 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) I have just spent a happy few minutes examining Mikeās photos in the walk-round section. Ā That rotor head.... OMG; it looks like something cobbled together in a 6th form metal working class. Ā And it also appears to lack almost any form of damping. Ā Anyone know any ex-Belvedere drivers? Ā Are they perchance somewhat plagued with knackered backs? Ā That thing must have rattled like a very rattly thing on a particularly bumpy day in Shaketown Edited January 31, 2020 by Ex-FAAWAFU 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I would say you're definitely doing the right thing to lose the rivets on this one Bill, take a look at some other builds out there and it just looks so much more realistic without them. I always thought the old Belvy to be a clean looking machine for its time. Ā I wonder if the rearĀ pylon differences are due to the kitĀ being modelled on the 192 prototype. Ā Crisp, I understand the rotor damping was done by the four 'pots' near the rotor head centre. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 39 minutes ago, 71chally said: Crisp, I understand the rotor damping was done by the four 'pots' near the rotor head centre. Indeed. Ā But thatās like saying the we understand that early cars were equipped with rubber blocks to act as suspension. Ā Ā All helicopters have to have an element of damping, or the rotor system literally shakes itself to bits under aerodynamic loads. Ā My point was that the Belvedereās dampers lookĀ rudimentary at best, and Iāll be amazed if itĀ wasnāt hideously uncomfortable to fly for any length of time. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: IAnyone know any ex-Belvedere drivers? The September 2018 issue of Aeroplane Monthly has a story on Belvedere ops in Aden. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 There are some stories from Belvedere pilots on PRUNE, the 'excitement' of the Avpin start seems to be the main issue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_the_Spider Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 When I was a kid I was a volunteer at the Manchester Air & Space Museum (Now MOSI) and spent many an hour in the Belvedere (XG454). Ā The passageway between the cockpit and rear, behind the co-pilotās seat, was difficult to navigate as a 14 year old, never mind as an adult in a flight suit and helmet. Also getting from the front to back in flight would probably endanger the aircraft as you wouldĀ end up sitting on something that you shouldnāt. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_the_Spider Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 I'm loving the buzz the Bilvedere is inducing here Ā Mike I just want to thank you for all those marvellous photographs, using the 'from beneath' in the rear engine bay I have been able to work out that there's not a passage down the side of the rear engine casing Ā Ā So that can be built now Ā Time to proceed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsaircorp Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 18 hours ago, Martian Hale said: In the real world, you are of course absolutely correct. Sadly, in Martian World I am all too easily sidetracked. The only way for me to not be suckered into having another play around with my Belvedere would be to remove the temptation altogether and not follow this thread and that would be a massive own goal, seeing as the Belvedere is one of my favourite helicopters and I enjoy watching your modelling. Ā MartianĀ š½ Soooo, A martian Belvedere ?? Come on... You're just modelling CC way seemingly... No, I did'nt say more about rocket fuel... CC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 49 minutes ago, 71chally said: There are some stories from Belvedere pilots on PRUNE, the 'excitement' of the Avpin start seems to be the main issue! Ah, AVPIN (Isopropyl Nitrate - a āmonofuelā which doesnāt need inconvenient things like oxygen to burn);Ā also the fashionable starter fuel of the the Belvedereās Naval contemporaries like the Whirly and early Wessex. Ā By all accounts it could be very exciting indeed, up to and including blowing entire panels off the side of the aircraft and/or starting raging engine fires. Ā Nice. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomerJ_757 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Ah, AVPIN (Isopropyl Nitrate - a āmonofuelā which doesnāt need inconvenient things like oxygen to burn);Ā also the fashionable starter fuel of the the Belvedereās Naval contemporaries like the Whirly and early Wessex. Ā By all accounts it could be very exciting indeed, up to and including blowing entire panels off the side of the aircraft and/or starting raging engine fires. Ā Nice. I had the pleasure of working on the mighty Canberra PR9 with its Avpin starter, they gave us an asbestos glove just in case as the 10kg CO2 extinguisher was no use if it dribbled out of the starter exhaust and ignited. Ā Same sort of thing on the Hunters and Lightningās too. Ā One of our Landrovers disappeared in a poof of Avpin as the watering can type dispenser fell over and may or may not have found a source of ignition. Ā Ā I was gobsmacked to learn that the Javelin used a cartridge starter/ Avpin hybrid system, the cartridge gases forcing the Avpin into the combustion chamber!Ā š± Ā I only had one problem with it, when a very earlyĀ modelĀ Casio watch started bubbling on my wrist! Edited January 31, 2020 by HomerJ_757 2 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 And lo, in the east, a razor saw appeared and began to wreak modelling upon the fuselage halves Ā Ā From this picture it is obvious that the kit shape is OK if a tad out in some places Ā One of which is the actual dimension of the whole fin, this is something like 9" or so too short in height so I whipped offĀ theĀ forward intake that sits atop the fuselage, just a bit too far back then cut off the fin(s) Ā This will let me push it forward and extend the base dimension of the fin structure Ā The fin will need cutting away at the rear too because the entire trailing edge is a fixed control tab Ā After separating these from family it seemed only fair to join them together Ā From this shot, even allowing for the green being swamped by the flash you can see I made the wall colour more slatey Ā I am happy enough with how it looks now so I can press on with other portions ofĀ the innards Ā Bulkheads and floor next then cockpit 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Ah, AVPIN (Isopropyl Nitrate - a āmonofuelā which doesnāt need inconvenient things like oxygen to burn);Ā also the fashionable starter fuel of the the Belvedereās Naval contemporaries like the Whirly and early Wessex. Ā By all accounts it could be very exciting indeed, up to and including blowing entire panels off the side of the aircraft and/or starting raging engine fires. Ā Nice. The Belvedere originated, of course, from a design for Naval use, hence the undercarriage arrangement and high sit, to allow easy loading of an underslung torpedo... ....so makes sense to use the same starter fuel as its contemporaries - shame no-one thought about designing it to fit onto a carrier lift and in a crowded hangar, etc! Edited January 31, 2020 by andyf117 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Wow, propre surgery there, Bill!! Ā The innards looks the biz from where I sit Ā Ciao 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 S'obvious nobody wanted the poor ickle Bilvedere but the RAF needed a steeple installer and the die was cast... 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 21 minutes ago, perdu said: S'obvious nobody wanted the poor ickle Bilvedere but the RAF needed a steeple installer and the die was cast... Y'mean this one? Ā 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, perdu said: S'obvious nobody wanted the poor ickle Bilvedere but the RAF needed a steeple installer and the die was cast... Also implicated in several instances of Bloodhound theft. Crimewatch reconstruction: Ā 2 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, TheBaron said: Also implicated in several instances of Bloodhound theft. And alleged to be responsible for the disappearance of some of its rivals: Edited January 31, 2020 by andyf117 2 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, perdu said: S'obvious nobody wanted the poor ickle Bilvedere but the RAF needed a steeple installer and the die was cast... It actually proved a pretty versatile craft, especially in Borneo, there weren't many alternatives for lifting in heavy guns and troops. It's one of those types that seem to get knocked in retrospect, a bit like the Beverley, but they both had unique capabilities that helped the RAF, especially during the run down of Empire. Edited January 31, 2020 by 71chally spelling 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, andyf117 said: The Belvedere originated, of course, from a design for Naval use, hence the undercarriage arrangement and high sit, to allow easy loading of an underslung torpedo... ....so makes sense to use the same starter fuel as its contemporaries - shame no-one thought about designing it to fit onto a carrier lift and in a crowded hangar, etc! They could fit on a carrier lift, but at an angle and without rotors, which must have been a faff! Belvederes did operate from RN Carriers during some of its campaigns. Ā The 191 was the naval design to spec to HR.146 as a torpedo armed ASW. As such it possibly could have been better than any alternative at the time, speed and lift capability wise. The 192 was always intended for the RAF, to spec H.150, the undercarriage arrangement may have partly been a hangover from the 191 but was also arrived at during ground resonance testing. Ā The piston engined Belvedere forebear,Ā the 173, was trailed aboard carriers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) I love this by the way, definitely an event of its time, 'Rolls Royce broken down?Ā no problem, just bring the 173!' Ā Ā Great closing line, "home James, and don't spare the gravitational forces"Ā Edited January 31, 2020 by 71chally 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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