Phantom query

[goggsy]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but it popped into my head randomly today and I’m wondering if any Phantom experts could put this one to bed for me.

 

i grew up in the English Lake District and please believe me when I say that every day was a free air show. For someone with an interest in planes I doubt there could have been a better place to be at the time. Throughout the 1980s I frequently saw RAF Phantoms overhead, and apart from Tornados, Jags, Harriers and F111s they were one of the most common types to be seen. Thinking about it, I can’t understand why; by that point in history surely they were interceptors? What possible advantage could there be in training interceptor pilots to fly at low level in mountainous terrain? In case anyone thinks I’m mixing them up with someone else’s F4s, trust me I’m not. I saw a few of the other sort as well from NATO members but these were definitely RAF.

 

By contrast I can only say for definite that I saw a Lightning come over one time at low level and that was actually after they left service. When I was sitting one of my GCSEs in 1989 one came barrelling over making a ton of noise; I think British Aerospace at Wharton were still operating a couple at that time as chase planes or something.

 

Any thoughts appreciated - I know nothing about the role specific training that RAF Phantom crews undertook so I realise there may be a good reason for what I saw but it seems counter intuitive when I think about.

[NorthBayKid]

Oh no, only a couple of RAF Phantom squadrons were tasked primarily with interception (43 is one of them).  The rest were ground attack primarily.

[Retired Bob]

 

11 minutes ago, goggsy said:

i grew up in the English Lake District and please believe me when I say that every day was a free air show. For someone with an interest in planes I doubt there could have been a better place to be at the time. Throughout the 1980s I frequently saw RAF Phantoms overhead, and apart from Tornados, Jags, Harriers and F111s they were one of the most common types to be seen. Thinking about it, I can’t understand why; by that point in history surely they were interceptors? What possible advantage could there be in training interceptor pilots to fly at low level in mountainous terrain? 

You are correct that by the 80s RAF Phantoms were interceptors.  As ground crew on a couple of fighter squadrons the aircrew would always use any chance to go low level for the fun and experience, high level intercepts under radar control were pretty mundane I was told.  The lake District, Yorkshire Dales and Highlands of Scotland were "play" areas.

[goggsy]

16 minutes ago, NorthBayKid said:

Oh no, only a couple of RAF Phantom squadrons were tasked primarily with interception (43 is one of them).  The rest were ground attack primarily.

I knew they were originally but thought they’d been re tasked y the 80s?

[goggsy]

3 minutes ago, Retired Bob said:

 

You are correct that by the 80s RAF Phantoms were interceptors.  As ground crew on a couple of fighter squadrons the aircrew would always use any chance to go low level for the fun and experience, high level intercepts under radar control were pretty mundane I was told.  The lake District, Yorkshire Dales and Highlands of Scotland were "play" areas.

The little buggers! Good fun to watch though, I bet they’d never get away with it these days. You’re lucky to see the occasional Hawk over the lakes now.

 

edit: You’d think someone would have noticed really. It’s not like the Phantom was all that discrete as an aircraft.

[Selwyn]

30 minutes ago, goggsy said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question but it popped into my head randomly today and I’m wondering if any Phantom experts could put this one to bed for me.

 

i grew up in the English Lake District and please believe me when I say that every day was a free air show. For someone with an interest in planes I doubt there could have been a better place to be at the time. Throughout the 1980s I frequently saw RAF Phantoms overhead, and apart from Tornados, Jags, Harriers and F111s they were one of the most common types to be seen. Thinking about it, I can’t understand why; by that point in history surely they were interceptors? What possible advantage could there be in training interceptor pilots to fly at low level in mountainous terrain? In case anyone thinks I’m mixing them up with someone else’s F4s, trust me I’m not. I saw a few of the other sort as well from NATO members but these were definitely RAF.

 

By contrast I can only say for definite that I saw a Lightning come over one time at low level and that was actually after they left service. When I was sitting one of my GCSEs in 1989 one came barrelling over making a ton of noise; I think British Aerospace at Wharton were still operating a couple at that time as chase planes or something.

 

Any thoughts appreciated - I know nothing about the role specific training that RAF Phantom crews undertook so I realise there may be a good reason for what I saw but it seems counter intuitive when I think about.

This was a time in the cold war when low level attacks were the normal way of getting under  radar cover. To intercept low level raiders you have to practice low level interception!

 

Selwyn

[Retired Bob]

1 minute ago, goggsy said:

The little buggers! Good fun to watch though, I bet they’d never get away with it these days. You’re lucky to see the occasional Hawk over the lakes now.

Agreed, stricter rules and cuts to flying hours have just about finished those days. ☹️

[Giorgio N]

 

12 minutes ago, goggsy said:

I knew they were originally but thought they’d been re tasked y the 80s?

 

They were, all Phantoms in ground attack units were replaced by the end of 1976 by Jaguars and were then transferred to air defence squadrons

[Richard E]

1 hour ago, goggsy said:

By contrast I can only say for definite that I saw a Lightning come over one time at low level and that was actually after they left service. When I was sitting one of my GCSEs in 1989 one came barrelling over making a ton of noise; I think British Aerospace at Wharton were still operating a couple at that time as chase planes or something.

 

Correct, they were being used as chase/radar targets during the development of the Tornado F Mk.2 and F Mk.3

 

1 hour ago, NorthBayKid said:

Oh no, only a couple of RAF Phantom squadrons were tasked primarily with interception (43 is one of them).  The rest were ground attack primarily.

 

55 minutes ago, Retired Bob said:

 

You are correct that by the 80s RAF Phantoms were interceptors.  As ground crew on a couple of fighter squadrons the aircrew would always use any chance to go low level for the fun and experience, high level intercepts under radar control were pretty mundane I was told.  The lake District, Yorkshire Dales and Highlands of Scotland were "play" areas.

The RAF originally procured the Phantom as a ground attack platform but it switched to an air defence role following the introduction of the Jaguar GR Mk1/1A and ultimately the Tornado GR Mk.1.

 

To offer an educated guess the RAF's Phantom aircrew probably needed to undertake regular operational low level flying as part of their continuation training and practice the skills needed to intercept both high and low flying targets - equally it probably helped the "targets" maintain their fighter evasion skills.

 

An afternoon that will live long in my memory from "back in the day" was spent at Aysgarth Falls watching (and listening to) smoke trailing Phantoms pursuing Jaguars across the Yorkshire skies. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Richard E

[Richard E]

1 hour ago, goggsy said:

The little buggers! Good fun to watch though, I bet they’d never get away with it these days. You’re lucky to see the occasional Hawk over the lakes now.

 

edit: You’d think someone would have noticed really. It’s not like the Phantom was all that discrete as an aircraft.

Despite perceptions to the contrary, RAF operational low flying and air combat manoeuvring training has always been subject to a very strict set of rules and procedures.

56 minutes ago, Retired Bob said:

Agreed, stricter rules and cuts to flying hours have just about finished those days. ☹️

A consequence of fewer airframes, coupled with changes in tactics from low to medium level attacks with precision guided munitions and greater use of more realistic simulator training.

 

The mighty Phantom was a true war machine - when you have an hour to spare can I refer you to Mark Mainwaring's "Phantom Phinale" two videos which are now available in full on You Tube.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Richard E

[goggsy]

Fair point about the low level interception training. I suppose I’m that used to seeing footage of them intercepting Bears over the North Sea that I forgot about the need for low level interception that would have been more likely in a hot war.

[Retired Bob]

37 minutes ago, Richard E said:

 RAF operational low flying and air combat manoeuvring training has always been subject to a very strict set of rules and procedures.

The 2 main ones are: Don't hit the ground and don't hit another aircraft.

[Lord Riot]

We practised low level attack, and so did the Russians. Hence the fighter crews had to practice low level intercepts too.

 

All RAF Phantoms were interceptors by the mid-70s with their squadrons all part of No. 11 Group, air defence. 

[goggsy]

9 hours ago, Retired Bob said:

The 2 main ones are: Don't hit the ground and don't hit another aircraft.

Something that happened in my area with depressing frequency unfortunately. I even heard it happen once and a classmate found the remains of one pilot, what was left of him. Not being political but the day it happened even a twelve year old could see there were too many aircraft in too little sky.

[Retired Bob]

11 hours ago, Lord Riot said:

All RAF Phantoms were interceptors by the mid-70s with their squadrons all part of No. 11 Group, air defence. 

Except the two squadrons over in West Germany, 19 and 92.  I was on:

 

[Lord Riot]

1 hour ago, Retired Bob said:

Except the two squadrons over in West Germany, 19 and 92.  I was on:

 

 

 

Very true! I forgot about RAFG, terribly sorry old chap! Still intereceptors though. You just didn't have as far to go! 😉

Edited January 25, 2020 by Julien
pls dont quite pics in a comment without reason

[Retired Bob]

31 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

Very true! I forgot about RAFG, terribly sorry old chap! Still intereceptors though. You just didn't have as far to go! 😉

But that was one place where very low level flying was really necessary.  But interceptors certainly, just like the aircraft they replaced, the mighty Lightning.