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Antb

B17G Ice Cold Katy 612th BS- Waist gun question

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Hi Folks, 

 

A very specific request that im hoping someone can help me with. 

 

I have today received the HK 48th B17G and am wanting to do it in the scheme of Ice Cold Katy of the 612 BS. My question is whether the aircraft had staggered waist guns or not as the HK kit comes with the early, non staggered, type. 

 

Ive found some information online in respect of the aircraft but couldn't find anything about the waist positions. 

 

Does anyone know at all please? 

 

Thanks in advance 

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HI

You need to list the serial of Ice Cold Katy,  which will then give you the plant and production block number, which will determine various details, including wait gun layout.  Not sure if there is an online source for these details,  others will know.

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I spent 20 years researching Ice Cold Katy, and corresponded with many of the crews that flew on her. I've pretty much got her entire combat history, including manufacture and her final days at Kingman, Arizona. Needless to say, my HK B-17 will be built as "Katy" as well.

 

She was a Douglas built B-17G-35-DL and she did have the staggered waist gun positions. There are a few other quirks she had during her career to, such as a replacement O/D stinger tail gun position and wing tip. If you're using the Kits World decals like me, there are a few problems with the sheet, such as the 401st Triangle "S" being black and white. The "S" was natural metal, not white. Also, there are a few names missing that were painted below the cockpit and on the front of the chin turret. If you have any questions, just let me know.

 

Steve

Edited by fightersweep

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According to my references, Ice Cold Katy was a Douglas Long Beach-built B-17G-35-DL,  serial 42-107039, and she  would have been fitted with the standard tail turret and staggered waist guns. She survived the war and was sold for scrap at Kingman, AZ on 11/28/45 by the Reconstruction Finance Corporation.

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
added text

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I've got some photos of her starboard side showing the position of the waist window. I'll scan them later and post here. In the meantime, here she is over Peenemunde. This image is a bit grainy I'm afraid, but the original print I have shows the waist gun arrangement quite clearly. The photo was taken on the 25th August 1944 and she was being flown that day by 1st Lt. Louis Ludeman and crew.

 

39344472050_3fe5ffbc39_c.jpgb17_peenemunde_1944.7ph6u9ou7s008cw8k4sc4kckk.ejcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4.th

 

Steve

Edited by fightersweep

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@72modeler @fightersweep thanks for the information chaps, that's really excellent! 

 

Steve, I'd seen that photo and noticed the OD wingtip. Understand it was damage from a previous mission? 

 

I notice the kits world decals have the 4 missing from the serial, assuming it wasn't like that on the actual aircraft? 

 

How much work would it be to stagger the waist is the question I guess. 

 

Thanks again folks

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1 minute ago, Antb said:

Steve, I'd seen that photo and noticed the OD wingtip. Understand it was damage from a previous mission? 

 

I notice the kits world decals have the 4 missing from the serial, assuming it wasn't like that on the actual aircraft? 

 

How much work would it be to stagger the waist is the question I guess. 

I can have a dig through the records and let you know when exactly the wing tip was replaced as I have the squadron repair records. I also have a photo that shows an olive drab stinger position fitted, as this was also replaced at one point, and also, for a period of time, she had a B-17F style nose blister fitted. The missing 4 on the decal sheet is correct as per the aircraft. I've just started cutting plastic to do the staggered waist gun conversion. It's not too difficult really. I'm just using some plastic card to blank the existing window, and cutting out a new window further forward. She also had different waist windows to those supplied in the kit. Again, I can post photos. She changed a bit during her career, and racked up 130 missions.

 

Steve

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7 minutes ago, Antb said:

How much work would it be to stagger the waist is the question I guess. 

 

Quite a lot, as it's plugging the existing and adding a new one....and then making good all that surface detail.  you may just want to wait for HK to do a late version.

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Just now, Troy Smith said:

Quite a lot, as it's plugging the existing and adding a new one....and then making good all that surface detail.  you may just want to wait for HK to do a late version.

I thought about that too, but it would be expensive as you would need to mix the two kits to get the right version. I'm half way through converting, and it's really not too bad. The key point, as you rightly point out, is restoring the surface detail.

 

Steve

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Just now, fightersweep said:

I thought about that too, but it would be expensive as you would need to mix the two kits to get the right version. I'm half way through converting, and it's really not too bad. The key point, as you rightly point out, is restoring the surface detail.

 

Steve

Are you doing a WIP?  This would be a good modification to document.

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7 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Are you doing a WIP?  This would be a good modification to document.

I certainly will be.  I could start with the conversion as I'm waiting for the Eduard photo etch sets to appear, so the build is waiting on the inevitable after market. I'll be building a 1/48 dispersal to display it on. This is an uber build for me. If I build one aircraft in my time, it will be this one.

 

Another little "Ice Cold Katy" fact. She has a connection with the TV series "Breaking Bad".

 

Steve

Edited by fightersweep

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9 minutes ago, fightersweep said:

Another little "Ice Cold Katy" fact. She has a connection with the TV series "Breaking Bad".

 

Steve

That sounds interesting! Swmbo and myself rather enjoy that programme... 

 

Thanks for the info on the work to stagger the waists. I'm not sure whether I want to get involved in moving the waist position, I'll have to give it some thought. 

 

Thanks ever so much for the info though, its superb!!! 

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Just now, Antb said:

That sounds interesting! Swmbo and myself rather enjoy that programme... 

No worries! 

 

The Breaking Bad reference: One of Katy's regular crews was that of Capt Richard McCord. His co-pilot was 1st Lt John R McMurray, who later had a film career as Richard McMurray (Raging Bull etc). His son is Sam McMurray, who has had a long acting career including the role of Dr Bravenec in Breaking Bad....Walt's surgeon. 🙂

 

Steve

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26 minutes ago, fightersweep said:

I could start with the conversion as I'm waiting for the Eduard photo etch sets to appear,

I suspect most of the stuff designed for the Monogram kit would work, which I believe you have already?   Got to be worth at least checking what maybe of use.

Eduard new sets are now really expensive, and require multiple sets,  a lot of the older ones gave a lot in one package.  They also don't deal with kit faults,  recent example, the Airfix Sea Fury cockpit side consoles are a bit narrow,  the Eduard set is the same width, when the could easily have added the correct width.... Let alone all the sets say for the Hobby Boss 1/48 Hellcat with the near 1/32nd canopy and IP.... 

I digress as usual. 

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I also have plans to build Ice Cold Katy but in 72nd scale. I'm particularly interested in the aircraft that flew from Northamptonshire airfields and have visited most of them.

Deenethorpe had a Type 10825/42 parachute store and Romney huts. These remain although the land has returned to agricultural use. Corus also use a landing strip here. There is a Link Trainer Hut in temporary brick 4188/42.
274672785.jpg
274672784.jpg
274672787.jpg

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@Ratch

 

I love visiting Deenethorpe. Haven't been for a few years unfortunately. Have they started developing the site yet? I hope I can get one more visit in before it disappears under the new "garden village"!

 

Steve

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Not sure Steve, Corby isn't my neck of the woods so I have to make a special trip over that way.

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5 minutes ago, Ratch said:

Not sure Steve, Corby isn't my neck of the woods so I have to make a special trip over that way.

I might drop Paul Bellamy a line. He'll be the man that knows as he does the guided tours of the airfield. I'm really hoping to get there in the spring for one last look.

 

Steve

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20 hours ago, fightersweep said:

This is an uber build for me. If I build one aircraft in my time, it will be this one.

 

Steve

Same here.  I’m in the early stages of mine and will be going all in on it.  I’m building a -25-DL and will post pictures later tonight after work of the staggered modification.  The most challenging part of the whole thing will be fashioning new windows but I think I may be able to pull it off.  I have a couple good up close reference photos as well of the gun mounts and windows since Douglas one piece windows differed from Boeing and Vega.  The mount itself was actually the same utilized in the 3 panel windows, only the canvas boot was on the outside on Douglas birds as opposed to inside on 3 panel windows.

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49440332597_e9864b6b70_c.jpgMRB_7054 by Matt Bourke, on Flickr

 

49440106836_05fb48bebd_c.jpgMRB_7050 by Matt Bourke, on Flickr

 

And here's an up close look at the staggered window on a 25-DL.  Notice the large opening for the gun with the notch at the top left.  The small rectangular panel is a patch from damage.

 

49439641478_e15b7b4d91_c.jpgDouglas Staggered Waist Window by Matt Bourke, on Flickr

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Thanks for all the info chaps, its been a really interesting read. Massively grateful for all the input. 

 

Ive been giving it some thought over the past few days and I don't think im up for cutting out a new window on a £100 kit. I could probably give it a go but fear that my skills would wreck the kit and I don't want that happening. So, sadly Ice Cold Katy is out of the question. 

 

I do, however, fancy something different to what comes in the box, but not sure on what as yet, other than id like something with some colour to it- be that red on the tail, or yellow or whatever. If anyone has any suggestions, im all ears 🙂  

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@Antb;

 

Have you checked out Kits World selection of decals? They've got a fair few B-17 sheets. If you want a red tail, how about something 381st Bomb Group? There's the 91st of course, but everybody does that group. 401st would be nice as you don't often see their aircraft modelled, but of course, you want something that covers an early production G model, so it's going to be a case of checking those references and going from there.

 

Steve

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15 hours ago, fightersweep said:

@Antb;

 

Have you checked out Kits World selection of decals? They've got a fair few B-17 sheets. If you want a red tail, how about something 381st Bomb Group? There's the 91st of course, but everybody does that group. 401st would be nice as you don't often see their aircraft modelled, but of course, you want something that covers an early production G model, so it's going to be a case of checking those references and going from there.

 

Steve

I have mate, spent hours looking at Hannants. at the different schemes available. This is how I came across Ice Cold Katy. Im not too sure how to go about checking the waist gun positions as not a B17 aficionado- is there an easy way of going about this so I don't have to keep badgering folk on here? 

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The easiest and really the only way is to use the serial number to determine the production block.  Douglas introduced staggered waist guns at block 25 while Boeing and Vega were both at block 50 I believe.

 

Some of the Kitsworld sheets put the production right on the cover but some don’t.  Then it becomes a question of what is colorful enough for you and whether or not you want to stay away from the 91st BG.  Yes there are a lot of 91st builds out there but that’s a product of it being one of the most documented bomb groups.  
 

That said, most of the “colorful” schemes Kitsworld offers are on later Gs with staggered waists and/or Cheyenne tail turrets.  An example of one that might be of interest is Mini the Moocher of the 303rd BG with the large red border around the triangle C.  She did not have staggered waists.  The only issue is that the plane likely had the group marking on the top of the right wing in addition to the tail but the decal sheet only gives you tail markings.  

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/KW48014?result-token=eKtvm
 

Another possibility is Swamp Fire with the yellow triangle K

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/KW48065?result-token=eKtvm

 

EDIT:  it looks like Swamp Fire had a Cheyenne tail retrofitted to it at some point, but I’m not sure when.

 

Edited by Matt B

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