Kittyhawk IV camouflage, RAAF, 1944, Italy?

[Chuck1945]

Working on a SH P-40N-5 that will done as a Kittyhawk IV using decals from the recent DK sheet 72080, 450 Sqd RAAF. The instructions show two of them I’m potentially interested in doing with the upper surfaces as Dark Earth and US Olive Drab, with MSG undersides, serials FT881 or FX799. Another on the same sheet, FX835 is shown as DE/OD, but with what might be a DG band where a DFS Sky band would have been painted out and undersides a combination of MSG wing and rear fuselage and a Neutral Grey lower cowl. I don’t have any photos of these and am hoping someone more knowledgeable can confirm or refute these color options. Presumably the aircraft would have been delivered in the US scheme of OD/NG, but what happened after arrival?

[Magpie22]

Hi Chuck,

Steve Mackenzie @Hornet133 is your man. He has a lot of info on the RAAF squadrons in Italy and the Middle East.

Peter M

[Sydhuey]

Steve assisted with that decal sheet , so will be accurate.

Basically with the schemes the US manufactures stopped painting aircraft in multiple schemes for various customers from approx. the P-40M onwards and now only came from the factory in OD over NG , as the RAF still wanted to use a TLS like scheme and as the OD/NG scheme was new paint , Dark Earth was applied over the OD in the same pattern as applied to earlier Kittyhawks giving a version of a TLS scheme, when a lot of these Kittyhawks went for overhauls many had the lower NG replaced with Medium Sea Grey or Light Grey.

FX835 is in a unique pattern while FT881 and FX799 are in the std pattern applied to most Kittyhawks.

[Buz]

Chuck

 

The decals are about as accurate as they can be, however if you drop me a PM, I'll forward some photos depending on which airframe you want to attempt.

 

As to what happened, well just a small correction on the info from Sydhuey. Aircraft from P-40K-10 onwards finished in OD/NG, they were sent overseas and when they arrived at the RAF Maintenance Unit, they were finished in the scheme of the day, The K-10 onwards up to the M models all in Desert Finish (later changed to TLS as units moved into Sicily and Italy), N models as far as can be told went straight to TLS, or variations there of, depending on which Maintenance Unit they went through.

 

Regards

 

Buz

Edited January 23, 2020 by Buz

[Dana Bell]

Hi Chuck,

 

I'm not familiar with the sheet you're using, nor with the aircraft you're depicting, but there are several color Curtiss factory photos showing early P-40Ns in US Dark Earth, Middlestone, and Azure Blue.  Is it possible that the scheme on one of these aircraft was modified for use in Italy?

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Hornet133]

Yes Craig Buzby and Myself were involved in the preparation of these decals. The info supplied by Sydhuey is the basic situation with Kittyhawk Mk.IVs in Italy. I see you are interested in the airframes coded OK-D with the 'No Orchids' artwork. The nose panel with the artwork was transferred to each successive OK-D as they replaced each other. Below is what I wrote years ago about FX799 and photos of the airframe.

 

'In Mar 1945 serial FT881 was replaced as 'OK-D' by FX799, a machine with spoked wheels and no extra framing in the port forward windscreen. The panel carrying the 'No Orchids' nose art was again transferred to this new airframe. The closeup of the artwork, taken at the end of the war is very interesting. It shows that when the panel was transferred they painted in the area below the girl's figure so that the colour demarcation matched that of this machine which was one of those with a high straight line to the demarcation'

 

 

The photos of FT881 and FX835 used to prepare the decals were supplied by Craig Busby. I was not going to post them here but if you contact him direct he has agreed to share them with you.

 

Steve Mackenzie

[Hornet133]

Dana,

 

They would have been very early airframes, the ones we are talking about here were much later receipt and were OD/NG modified as Sydhuey noted.

 

[Chuck1945]

Many thanks for all additional information and confirmation regarding the colors.

 

This became a more complicated project than I originally planned. I was ordering a couple of other new release DK decal sheets from Hannants and saw this one too. The pictures of sheet instructions were just big enough I could see there were some short tail Kittyhawks, a couple of long tail, original canopy Kittyhawks and a couple of N-5 models. Thinking I could use one of SH long tail Kittyhawk III kits, I ordered that sheet too. When they arrived I could see that the long tails were actually Kittyhawk IV versions and that the III kit would need modification to work. After considering methods to reproduce the cowl air vents, it finally dawned on me that it would be much easier to just use SH P-40N kit and do one of the marking options for that version...

[Sydhuey]

Also with this aircraft I believe it was called "No Orchids" on FT881 and FX 799 but wasn't called "No Orchids" on the first Kittyhawk FX835 but was "Geraldine" under the front edge of the cockpit? 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Sydhuey

[Ed Russell]

Interestingly, the aircraft is named from a 1939 novel - No Orchids for Miss Blandish -  and the typescript on the P-40 looks just like original edition cover. It was a very popular book of the time. I can't really recommend it but if you are going to read it make sure you get the original as it was rewritten and edited several times post war to water down some of the sexual violence and depravity.

[tonyot]

Like most other RAF fighter aircraft in Egypt from 1944 onwards,.... the Kittyhawks wore the Day Fighter scheme with sky band and red spinner,..... when moving to Italy most had the Ocean Grey replaced by Dark Earth and the sky bands were usually overpainted too,...... but some,.... especially with the SAAF unit retained the Day Fighter scheme. This is based on photographic evidence.

Cheers

           Tony

[Hornet133]

I do not agree Tony. 

 

Kittyhawks wearing the Day Fighter scheme are extremely rare. Craig Busby and I have identified some that are 'believed' to be possibly DFS but you can count them on your fingers (without duplication). OK-L FT859 on DK Decals sheet 72080 is one believed to be an example.

 

In North Africa and Sicily Kittyhawks were in desert colours (with a few strays still in Temperate colours as delivered). Once in Italy they moved to the Temperate scheme (Dark Green/ Dark Earth). The N models that had Olive Drab upper surfaces on receipt had Dark Earth added to give an approximation of the TLS.

 

At one stage Kittyhawk IVs were having Sky Blue fuselage bands painted on at the factory but at least 95% of them had them painted out once they got into RAF etc service. There are many more examples of painted out bands than photos of airframes with them still on. OK-L FT859 referenced above is an example that still had it.

 

The above notes refer to airframes used in the Mediterean area. The SAAF had quite a few different schemes used on P-40s for training in the Union but that is a different story.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Hornet133
change P-40N to Kittyhawk IV

[tonyot]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:59 PM, Hornet133 said:

I do not agree Tony. 

 

Kittyhawks wearing the Day Fighter scheme are extremely rare. Craig Busby and I have identified some that are 'believed' to be possibly DFS but you can count them on your fingers (without duplication). OK-L FT859 on DK Decals sheet 72080 is one believed to be an example.

 

In North Africa and Sicily Kittyhawks were in desert colours (with a few strays still in Temperate colours as delivered). Once in Italy they moved to the Temperate scheme (Dark Green/ Dark Earth). The N models that had Olive Drab upper surfaces on receipt had Dark Earth added to give an approximation of the TLS.

 

At one stage Kittyhawk IVs were having Sky Blue fuselage bands painted on at the factory but at least 95% of them had them painted out once they got into RAF etc service. There are many more examples of painted out bands than photos of airframes with them still on. OK-L FT859 referenced above is an example that still had it.

 

The above notes refer to airframes used in the Mediterean area. The SAAF had quite a few different schemes used on P-40s for training in the Union but that is a different story.

 

I did state "in Egypt from 1944 onwards",........and "when moving to Italy most had the Ocean Grey replaced by Dark Earth and the sky bands were usually overpainted too"!

I do know that those wearing the desert scheme were progressively modified during the advance through Italy. I have seen quite a few pics of P-40N`s,.....Kittyhawk Mk.IV`s wearing DFS and some did reach Italy wearing these colours .  One of them can be seen here, depicting FX585, ND-S seen alongside a Temp. Land Schemed Kittyhawk in Italy during 1945;

 

And one where the scheme has been altered to Temp Land Scheme with the Sky band overpainted, but still showing through;

 

Another TLS scheme with Sky band overpainted, with a DFS finished Kittyhawk behind,....most likely  ND-S again from above?

 

Some more DFS Kittyhawks;

 

Above, in Egypt, from the below BM post;

 

Below,....... these Kittyhawks wear TLS,...with Sky Band still visible;

 

TLS with Sky band;

 

Probably unrelated,..... but of interest,...... the RCAF operated late model P-40`s in a mixture of Day Fighter scheme and OD/NG,.... as seen in the Technicolor film `Son of Lassie' which was filmed at Patricia Bay, Canada. Now whether they were painted in Canadian serice or at the factory,.... I don`t know and suspect that it was by the RCAF?; 

Above shows two DFS Kittyhawk`s, F has the rudder from a USAAF OD/NG schemed aircraft.

 

And speaking of OD/NG;

 

Edit;

And just to reinforce what I said about fighters in Egypt wearing the DFS from 1944 onwards,.......here are a pair of Hurricane`s wearing the scheme, the first of which is an Egyptian AF aircraft from RAF stocks;

 

And some Spitfire Mk.V`s which were mostly refurbished and refinished in the DFS;

 

And some of the Spit`s, like the Kittyhawk`s retained the scheme after deploying across the Med;

 

Cheers

         Tony

Edited January 28, 2020 by tonyot

[tonyot]

Ah well,..... another waste of time! I`ll learn one day! 

[airjiml2]

On 1/27/2020 at 2:12 AM, tonyot said:

Probably unrelated,..... but of interest,...... the RCAF operated late model P-40`s in a mixture of Day Fighter scheme and OD/NG,.... as seen in the Technicolor film `Son of Lassie' which was filmed at Patricia Bay, Canada. Now whether they were painted in Canadian serice or at the factory,.... I don`t know and suspect that it was by the RCAF?; 

 

You suspect correctly my friend.  RCAF Kittyhawks...of all variants, including some early Kittyhawks...were painted in the Day Fighter scheme in Canada.  As far as I can tell are were delivered in OD/NG to Canada.

 

Jim

[stevehnz]

1 hour ago, tonyot said:

Ah well,..... another waste of time! I`ll learn one day! 

Nah mate, I've only just seen these last additions to this thread & find your input, as usual informative & well reasoned with supporting photos. Maybe we're just all developing colour fatigue on here. It ain't like the good old days.  

Steve.

[Magpie22]

2 hours ago, tonyot said:

Ah well,..... another waste of time! I`ll learn one day! 

Know the feeling well, Tony. Don't let the lack of response discourage you: keep up the good work!!!

We do read and absorb your posts, even if we don't always acknowledge them.

Cheers,

Peter M

[Hornet133]

Tony,

 

Don't despair, I was fully intending to reply but have just got back from 36 hours in Sydney where I do not have internet connection or access to the HDs.

 

There is no doubt that many, many Spitfires wore DFS in Italy (along with at least 4 other schemes). Hurricanes are less common in DFS as they were being phased out of service by the time things got to Italy. By then they were largely serving in 2nd line units and repainting from their previous schemes was not of high priority.

 

Yes some RCAF P-40s got the DFS scheme, others were stripped to Natural Metal, but they were delivered AFAIK in either Temperate colours or OD/NG for P-40Ns etc.

 

I will come to the question of DFS on P-40s in N.Africa and Italy in more detail later. Got some tennis to watch atm.

 

Steve

[Hornet133]

Now that we know that RCAF airframes are not really relevant to the N.Africa and Italy ones, being repaints in many cases (as were some that had repainting in RAAF service) we can look at some of the other examples that were brought up.

 

A photo was posted of FX594 in DFS. This was the airframe that went to the UK to be tested (as examples of most types did). There were only 2 colour schemes approved for fighter airframes in the UK at the time, DFS and the High altitude scheme. As they were not going to try to pretend the P-40N was the later, it was repainted in DFS, another repaint not it's ex factory scheme.

 

 

 

Myriad photos of Spitfires and other types in DFS in Italy has absolutely no bearing on how P-40s were painted. The airframes of 239 Wing etc were considered 'tactical' types and painted in a scheme most suited to the operations they flew at a relatively low level to give better concealment against the ground from above. That scheme was Temperate Land Scheme (TLS). The Spitfires of the Army co-operation (Sqns 317, 40 SAAF etc) were also mostly in TLS for the same reason.

 

DFS was used on a very few airframes in Italy as I said earlier. Why just a few machines were painted like this I have no idea but it seems to be a late war thing. The example that you posted (ND-S FX585 from 11 SAAF) is one that we were already aware of and there is little doubt that this is DFS.

 

Another example is one of Jack Doyle's airframes from 450 Sqn (OK-L FT859) which is on the DK Decals sheet, photos attached

 

 

 

We only know of 2-3 others, against 100s of photos of P-40s in TLS and older types in Desert Scheme. 

 

Steve Mackenzie

Edited January 30, 2020 by Hornet133

[tonyot]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 12:47, Hornet133 said:

Now that we know that RCAF airframes are not really relevant to the N.Africa and Italy ones, being repaints in many cases (as were some that had repainting in RAAF service) we can look at some of the other examples that were brought up.

 

A photo was posted of FX594 in DFS. This was the airframe that went to the UK to be tested (as examples of most types did). There were only 2 colour schemes approved for fighter airframes in the UK at the time, DFS and the High altitude scheme. As they were not going to try to pretend the P-40N was the later, it was repainted in DFS, another repaint not it's ex factory scheme.

 

 

 

 

 

Myriad photos of Spitfires and other types in DFS in Italy has absolutely no bearing on how P-40s were painted. The airframes of 239 Wing etc were considered 'tactical' types and painted in a scheme most suited to the operations they flew at a relatively low level to give better concealment against the ground from above. That scheme was Temperate Land Scheme (TLS). The Spitfires of the Army co-operation (Sqns 317, 40 SAAF etc) were also mostly in TLS for the same reason.

 

DFS was used on a very few airframes in Italy as I said earlier. Why just a few machines were painted like this I have no idea but it seems to be a late war thing. The example that you posted (ND-S FX585 from 11 SAAF) is one that we were already aware of and there is little doubt that this is DFS.

 

 

Another example is one of Jack Doyle's airframes from 450 Sqn (OK-L FT859) which is on the DK Decals sheet, photos attached

 

 

 

 

 

We only know of 2-3 others, against 100s of photos of P-40s in TLS and older types in Desert Scheme. 

 

Steve Mackenzie

You seem to have misunderstood me,........ I was saying that those Kittyhawks which were sent from Egypt based MU`s from 1944 onwards,..... especially those which saw squadron service before crossing the Med,...... appear to have worn a form of the DFS. Upon arrival in Italy the majority were altered to a form of the TLS by replacing the top side grey with Dark Earth or a similar brown,........ but as you say,.... a few did retain the DFS, especially towards the end of the war. 

I don`t dispute what the colour scheme was on delivery from the USA because I don`t know,...... but I do know that many were repainted by the RAF,..... in the Canal Zone and of course in the UK for trials purposes. 

 

Again,.... I agree (and said so) that those aircraft wearing the desert scheme from 1943 were gradually altered to a form of TLS by modifying the colours and I have read that a mixture of RAF, USAAF & even captured colours were used. 

 

Cheers

          Tony 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Julien
edityed for multiple hoto quotes

[tonyot]

20 hours ago, airjiml2 said:

 

You suspect correctly my friend.  RCAF Kittyhawks...of all variants, including some early Kittyhawks...were painted in the Day Fighter scheme in Canada.  As far as I can tell are were delivered in OD/NG to Canada.

 

Jim

Cheers Jim,.... thanks for confirming my suspicions mate,.....just thought I`d add it as it was semi relevant.  Hope you are keeping well bud?

 

19 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Nah mate, I've only just seen these last additions to this thread & find your input, as usual informative & well reasoned with supporting photos. Maybe we're just all developing colour fatigue on here. It ain't like the good old days.  

Steve.

Cheers Steve,...... I always value your opinion as the voice of reason!  

 

18 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

Know the feeling well, Tony. Don't let the lack of response discourage you: keep up the good work!!!

We do read and absorb your posts, even if we don't always acknowledge them.

Cheers,

Peter M

 Thanks Peter,..... and I with yours too mate,....... hope you are well? 

 

Cheers,

            Tony

[Buz]

Tony

 

This is an interesting subject which I think may cause more questions than answers and a lot of confusion. Its one of those questions that's been on my P-40 research back burning, I keep checking the records in the UK to see if I can find an answer, yet to date nothing concrete has come to light

On 1/31/2020 at 7:32 AM, tonyot said:

I was saying that those Kittyhawks which were sent from Egypt based MU`s from 1944 onwards,..... especially those which saw squadron service before crossing the Med,...... appear to have worn a form of the DFS.

This is one of the major issues, as some early Kittyhawk IVs went through 107MU (Egyptian based) in late 1943 (Test flown in Jan 1944), but the actual finish is very hard to track down. Aircraft you would have expected to be finished in DFS having come through 107MU - aren't and some (aircraft that went through the Casablanca based MU's) that shouldn't be - are. And therein lies the issue in trying to work them out.  Additionally not that many went through the MU's in Egypt.......most went through Algiers and Casablanca based MU's The first arrivals are shown 30th Nov 1943 where 16 Serviceable aircraft and 4 unserviceable are noted at Oujda, by 27th Dec 1943 119 Kittyhawk IV's in Casablanca based MU's (32 Class A/82 Class B/7 Class C), and from then the numbers keep coming and going until the deliveries were complete.

 

To look at the known DFS schemed Mediterranean based aircraft.

FT859 - This one arrived in North Africa aboard the SS James Gunn, Flown over to Italy in April 1944. Possibly an aircraft that was used by 73OTU however no proof has been discovered to date. First delivered to 450 SQN Jul 1944

FX585 - Another SS James Gunn aircraft, not noted as being test flown at 107MU, first info shows it being test flown at 108MU in Jul 1944 then sent to Italy. Likely first flown at 250 Squadron

FX819 - This one went through Casablanca Feb 1944 - issued directly to 450SQN late Feb 1944

FX836 - The one sent through Oran to Italy Feb 1944 - issued to 5 SQN SAAF Jun 1944

 

At no point can I confirm a cross over in the air frame's histories, which makes working this one out very difficult

 

Just to point out, on the main there was no squadron usage of the aircraft prior to being shipped across the Med to Italy. Some (very very small number) went through 73OTU (also a number of K and M models finished in DFS but that's a different story) but otherwise none had Squadron usage. 

 

regards

 

Buz

[tonyot]

16 hours ago, Buz said:

Tony

 

This is an interesting subject which I think may cause more questions than answers and a lot of confusion. Its one of those questions that's been on my P-40 research back burning, I keep checking the records in the UK to see if I can find an answer, yet to date nothing concrete has come to light

This is one of the major issues, as some early Kittyhawk IVs went through 107MU (Egyptian based) in late 1943 (Test flown in Jan 1944), but the actual finish is very hard to track down. Aircraft you would have expected to be finished in DFS having come through 107MU - aren't and some (aircraft that went through the Casablanca based MU's) that shouldn't be - are. And therein lies the issue in trying to work them out.  Additionally not that many went through the MU's in Egypt.......most went through Algiers and Casablanca based MU's The first arrivals are shown 30th Nov 1943 where 16 Serviceable aircraft and 4 unserviceable are noted at Oujda, by 27th Dec 1943 119 Kittyhawk IV's in Casablanca based MU's (32 Class A/82 Class B/7 Class C), and from then the numbers keep coming and going until the deliveries were complete.

 

To look at the known DFS schemed Mediterranean based aircraft.

FT859 - This one arrived in North Africa aboard the SS James Gunn, Flown over to Italy in April 1944. Possibly an aircraft that was used by 73OTU however no proof has been discovered to date. First delivered to 450 SQN Jul 1944

FX585 - Another SS James Gunn aircraft, not noted as being test flown at 107MU, first info shows it being test flown at 108MU in Jul 1944 then sent to Italy. Likely first flown at 250 Squadron

FX819 - This one went through Casablanca Feb 1944 - issued directly to 450SQN late Feb 1944

FX836 - The one sent through Oran to Italy Feb 1944 - issued to 5 SQN SAAF Jun 1944

 

At no point can I confirm a cross over in the air frame's histories, which makes working this one out very difficult

 

Just to point out, on the main there was no squadron usage of the aircraft prior to being shipped across the Med to Italy. Some (very very small number) went through 73OTU (also a number of K and M models finished in DFS but that's a different story) but otherwise none had Squadron usage. 

 

regards

 

Buz

Thanks Buz,.... much appreciated,...... like you say it is a subject where it is very hard to pin down exactly what went on. I had assumed that  11 Sqn SAAF flew the type in N.Africa before taking them across the Med in 1944 but upon checking they trained on Spitfire`s and received their Kittyhawk`s upon arrival in Italy! 

 

It would be interesting if the DFS was applied in the States,..... as it was to the Thunderbolts used by 73 OTU,..... but I have found no evidence to confirm this. 

 

Keep up the good work,..... it is a subject that I am interested in too, 

Cheers,

           Tony

[Buz]

Hi Tony

 

I'm afraid to say but the Kittyhawk IV's left the US in the standard finish of the day, i.e OD/NG with a number in NMF towards the end of the production run.

 

Repainted into whatever colours where required on arrival in their Theater of Operations.......(RNZAF left theirs in NG/OD. Pretty much the same for RAAF aircraft, Russian seems to be the same although limited info is available etc).

 

Buz

[304th BRAT]

On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 11:12, Hornet133 said:

Yes Craig Buzby and Myself were involved in the preparation of these decals. The info supplied by Sydhuey is the basic situation with Kittyhawk Mk.IVs in Italy. I see you are interested in the airframes coded OK-D with the 'No Orchids' artwork. The nose panel with the artwork was transferred to each successive OK-D as they replaced each other. Below is what I wrote years ago about FX799 and photos of the airframe.

 

'In Mar 1945 serial FT881 was replaced as 'OK-D' by FX799, a machine with spoked wheels and no extra framing in the port forward windscreen. The panel carrying the 'No Orchids' nose art was again transferred to this new airframe. The closeup of the artwork, taken at the end of the war is very interesting. It shows that when the panel was transferred they painted in the area below the girl's figure so that the colour demarcation matched that of this machine which was one of those with a high straight line to the demarcation'

 

 

The photos of FT881 and FX835 used to prepare the decals were supplied by Craig Busby. I was not going to post them here but if you contact him direct he has agreed to share them with you.

 

Steve Mackenzie

I have the Aussie Decals sheet showing No Orchids as aircraft letter O, but has no serial number There is a photo on page 79 of Desert Air Force at War by Bowyer & Shores which seems to show this, the letter being on the leading edge of the wing on the undercarriage fairing and under the nose. This shot is at an angle so is difficult to confirm. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

John