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k5054nz

Short Solent Mk.IV in 1/72 - how?

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Hi all,

Feeling somewhat inspired by @AdrianMF's ongoing Short Empire build, I've lately been wondering: how could one achieve a Solent Mk.IV in 1/72? Would a Sunderland kit (which?) be of use, or would it be better to start fresh? I'd be looking to build ZK-AMO, the last surviving TEAL flying boat now preserved at MOTAT in Auckland, NZ.

 

I'd be very grateful for any advice, drawings, info or links to same.

Edited by k5054nz

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Seeing butchery is involved, I would use an Airfix Mk I/III. Cheapest starting point. Either an old Halifax or a couple of Beaufighters for your engines, and some 4 blade props. You might find some Aeroclub ones, or AIM Transport Wings did some white metal ones for their Hastings.

Others will no doubt give your more mileage.

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Hi Zac,

 

It certainly can be done! In fact, I have started that project some time ago, with a lot of work already done and much more ahead. I also thank Adrian for a new impulse on it, thanks to the use of the automotive putty.

 

49413703338_943af2ed7c_c.jpgP1130274 by Carlos Carreira, no Flickr

 

You my find lots of references at Seawings (thanks Bryan Ribbans!). I plan to start a thread on this soon, so I'll leave the details for later. 

 

Carlos

 

 

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IIRC, the Oakland Aviation Museum in California is said to have a Solent 3 that was once owned by Howard Hughes in their collection. You might visit their website to see if there are photos you could use.  From the photos I have seen, I think the Solent used the same props and spinners (Lots of photos show no spinner fitted.)  as the ones fitted to Centaurus-powered Tempest Mk II's or early Sea Fury FB11's, as well as Bristol Freighters Pretty pricey way to get four props/spinners as you would need to rob four Matchbox or Heller Tempest  kits, off the top of my head, as I bet four Aeroclub metal ones would be impossible to obtain! Hope this helps a little.

(P.S. You can't use Hamilton Std. four bladers like the ones fitted to Corsairs or Thunderbolts, for the aircraft that had no spinners, as their rotation is opposite that of the Hercules!)

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
corrected text

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4 hours ago, CarLos said:

Sorry, wrong photo!

"A smear of filler"

 

It looks so-o-o-ooo close to a standard Sunderland fuselage but then they slip in an extra section and tweak the planing surfaces. Grrrr....

 

Regards,

Adrian

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2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

IIRC, the Oakland Aviation Museum in California is said to have a Solent 3 that was once owned by Howard Hughes in their collection. You might visit their website to see if there are photos you could use. Kermit Weeks in Florida also has a Solent in his collection. From the photos I have seen, I think the Solent used the same props and spinners (Lots of photos show no spinner fitted.)  as the ones fitted to Centaurus-powered Tempest Mk II's or early Sea Fury FB11's, as well as Bristol Freighters Pretty pricey way to get four props/spinners as you would need to rob four Matchbox Tempest or four  Frog Sea Fury kits, off the top of my head, as I bet four Aeroclub metal ones would be impossible to obtain! Hope this helps a little.

(P.S. You can't use Hamilton Std. four bladers like the ones fitted to Corsairs or Thunderbolts, as their rotation is opposite that of the Hercules!)

Mike

The Kermit Weeks one is actually a Sandringham/ Sunderland... not a Solent.

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4 minutes ago, Paul J said:

The Kermit Weeks one is actually a Sandringham/ Sunderland... not a Solent.

Yep- you are right! Should have gone back and looked it up in my photo archives! I will go back and correct my post- don't want to be the bearer of incorrect information- thanks!

Mike

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I think that the extra fuselage length was inserted aft of the wing. I have a drawing that I can't access at present because it's on my very dead computer (I'm doing this on my tablet), but will check when (If?) I get the beast back.

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15 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I think the Solent used the same props and spinners (Lots of photos show no spinner fitted.)  as the ones fitted to Centaurus-powered Tempest Mk II's or early Sea Fury FB11's, as well as Bristol Freighters Pretty pricey way to get four props/spinners as you would need to rob four Matchbox Tempest or four  Frog Sea Fury kits, off the top of my head, as I bet four Aeroclub metal ones would be impossible to obtain! Hope this helps a little.

(P.S. You can't use Hamilton Std. four bladers like the ones fitted to Corsairs or Thunderbolts, as their rotation is opposite that of the Hercules!)

Mike

The Frog Sea Fury only gives you the 5 blade prop, not the early 4 blader.

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The four-blade Typhoon prop is basically the same unit as the Tempest prop, and the Sabre and Centaurus Tempest props are either identical or close enough to be identical in 1/72, for my money at least. Only problem is finding four. Best source might be from Academy Typhoon kits and build the Typhoons as 3-bladers, or sell them on to someone who wants to.

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On 1/21/2020 at 12:39 AM, bentwaters81tfw said:

Seeing butchery is involved, I would use an Airfix Mk I/III. Cheapest starting point. Either an old Halifax or a couple of Beaufighters for your engines, and some 4 blade props. 

Others will no doubt give your more mileage.

Thank you, this is great info to have! Off to find a cheap Sunderland!

  

3 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

The four-blade Typhoon prop is basically the same unit as the Tempest prop, and the Sabre and Centaurus Tempest props are either identical or close enough to be identical in 1/72, for my money at least. Only problem is finding four. Best source might be from Academy Typhoon kits and build the Typhoons as 3-bladers, or sell them on to someone who wants to.

That's very helpful and timely info as last night - well, five hours ago - I was sorting through some battered old builds and found a couple of old Tempests, and recently I was given two 1/72 Airfix Typhoons which will be getting three-bladers! Props and spinners sorted - they say the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step 😉

 

Thank you all! Fortunately I have friends in Auckland who can help with photos of ZK-AMO, and @CarLos I've visited Seawings and have bookmarked their walkaround (and downloaded the three plans drawings). I'm excited to see more of your build!

Edited by k5054nz

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Hi Zac,

 

I stitched and scaled the plans, you may download them from here: 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Yoft-26EEPbspZBcdRjFD6p6qPY34BJG

 

The Descriptive and Servicing Manual is also a great download from Seawings. Lots of detail images to help with detailing!

 

Until now I've only dealt with the hull. The main differences to the Sunderland are:

 

1 - Extension by 13mm in front of the wing;

2 - Increase the planning bottom, including repositioning the step;

3 - Enlarge the planning bottom in front of the step;

4 - Reprofile the top, eliminating the "hump" characteristic of the Sunderland;

5 - Make a new nose and tail;

6 - New tailplanes, fin and rudder;

7 - new windows.

 

 1 is an easy one; 2 is also easy, but laborious; I was frightened with 4, but the use of automotive primer (with an aluminium net) turned this very easy. The others are still to be done, but I don't think they will be very difficult (unless I'll opt by 3D printing; then the main obstacle will be my lack of experience with Fusion 360).

 

It's good to see others making a Solent!

 

Carlos

 

  

 

 

 

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Mind that Solent (and Seaford) have the engines parallel to the fuselage centreline (like the pre-war Empire had), whereas all Sunderlands have them divergent outside...

Cheers

Michael

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1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

Mind that Solent (and Seaford) have the engines parallel to the fuselage centreline (like the pre-war Empire had), whereas all Sunderlands have them divergent outside...

Cheers

Michael

Sorry Michael, this is not the case. Please have a look at page 45 of this article, also at the photo in the same page: http://seawings.co.uk/images/Articles/Seaford S45 P1 to4.PDF

Also the heading photo in the Wings of Peace article by John Stroud shows clearly the engines "toe-out": http://seawings.co.uk/images/Articles/OOP Articles Ready to Up-Load-Nov2018/Solent - Aeroplane Monthly ex Patrick Hore.pdf

 

Carlos

 

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Toed out Engines on our MOTAT Mk IV Solent

 

MOTAT+Solent+1.jpg

 

Regards

 

Alan

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Certainly not wanting to pick have a fight discussion on the subject of toed out or otherwise engines on these, especially with ZK-AMO to illustrate the truth of the matter but I know I have read somewhere that the Teal Mk IVs were the only ones not to have this feature, they being modified at TEALs insistence supposedly. If that is not the case, I wonder where this myth originated from, as @KRK4m has also come across it too somewhere? :unsure:

Steve.

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1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

If that is not the case, I wonder where this myth originated from, as @KRK4m has also come across it too somewhere? :unsure:

Steve.

When I started this project I was prepared to correct this, so I also read it somewhere...

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2 hours ago, CarLos said:

so I also read it somewhere...

Philip Treweek obviously thought so too. I wonder where his info came from?

Some more here. I'm beginning to think @LDSModeller, Alan's photo might give the impression of splayed engines due to camera angle or zoom range, the google earth photos of the Solent beside the Sunderland are a powerful argument for parallel engines.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz

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From the Peter Lewis Collection on Seawings

 

Solent Mk IV frontal view - to me the engines look towed out (even if slightly)?

 

TEAL Short Solent

Solent Front view

 

TEAL Short Solent

 

At MOTAT there is a member of the staff who I have met, who maintained TEAL Solent's at Mechanics Bay

he would know. Unfortunately I can't make it there for some time to ask.

 

Video of Solent, some good shots, you can make up your minds ^_^

MOTAT Solent Video

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

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4 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Video of Solent, some good shots, you can make up your minds ^_^

MOTAT Solent Video

 

Here's a still from the video that shows that ZK-AMO has parallel engines!

 

49424086316_f67139d924_c.jpgZK-AMO top view

 

So the question is: which Solents had the same transformation?

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Here is G-AHIL for comparison:

 

49423660358_6bd7fcc5e0_z.jpgG-AHIL top view

 

May be, as Alain pointed, that ZK-AMO has a slight toe-out but much less that G-AHIL or other Solents. This must be documented somewhere...

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7 minutes ago, CarLos said:

This must be documented somewhere...

And it is! On page 224 of "British Flying Boats" Peter London writes:

 

49423721438_47bc04fda6_c.jpg

 

So, the parallel engines are exclusive to Solent 4's.

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Depending on the photos, the wing's chord angle to the aircraft longitudinal axis may play a trick on the eyes and contribute to the "toed out" appearance of the engines nacelles.

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I’ve been into my library and found my copy of “Ocean Sentinel” about the Sunderland and its derivatives. The history of the airframes I believe helps explain whether the engines are toed in or not, and confirms the last post by CarLos above.

 

It describes the S.45 Seaford as having a redesigned tail unit, the fuselage forward of the wing extended by “about three feet”, a new planing bottom and Bristol Hercules 130 engines. No mention of a change to the toeing out of the engines as on the Sunderland. 2 prototypes and 8 production aircraft were built. 7 of the production aircraft, NJ201-207, later became Solents, see below. Other than the 2 prototypes none were taken on charge by the RAF.

 

The 12 Solent 2 aircraft were originally “laid down as Seafords NJ208 to 219” but had been cancelled by the RAF in October 1945. The Solent 3 were a mix of conversions of Seaford Mk.I NJ202-207 plus conversions of NJ201 (variously described as a Seaford I / Solent I) and 7 Solent Mk.2 aircraft. These had Hercules 637 engines, being the a civil version of the military Hercules 100 series. These were all registered to the MoS / MCA in 1946/47.

 

The Hercules 100/600 series engines had a power rating of between 1600hp and 1700hp depending on the exact model.

 

There were then 4 new build Solent 4 airframes in 1949 for TEAL. On p193 of “Ocean Sentinel” there is a picture of G-ANYI “Awatere” with a caption that specifically notes that the engines on this aircraft were aligned parallel to the fuselage. The engines in the Solent 4 however were the more powerful Hercules 733. This was rated at 2040hp.

 

So I would surmise that, in the Solent 4, the fitting of engines with 25% more power led to the need to eliminate the toe out of the engines possibly to make handling with an engine out a bit easier.

 

 

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