Jump to content

As a result of the close-down of the UK by the British Government last night, we have made all the Buy/Sell areas read-only until we open back up again, so please have a look at the announcement linked here.

This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

BushBrit66

P40F passed to French Algeria 43

Recommended Posts

So, modeling one of these machines  that are well photographed in colour.  The dark colour looks more red and does not look like standard RAF colours. These machines were passed over by the USAAF and their marking were uniformly painted out. 

Any ideas out there. Is this just an old picture playing tricks? 

 

Cheers

Sean

Edited by BushBrit66

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be handy to link to the image you're referring to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is is proven that these are original colour shots? They look colourised to me.

Looks like the same shoot and event as this mono shot on Wikipedia, which claims it's Casablanca in Jan 1943 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:P-40F_GCII-5_Casablanca_9Jan43.jpg

 

P-40F_GCII-5_Casablanca_9Jan43.jpg

Edited by Work In Progress

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

Is is proven that these are original colour shots? They look colourised to me.

Looks like the same shoot and event as this mono shot on Wikipedia, which claims it's Casablanca in Jan 1943 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:P-40F_GCII-5_Casablanca_9Jan43.jpg

 

P-40F_GCII-5_Casablanca_9Jan43.jpg

The fourth aircraft in, "2", is not the same aircraft as the colorized photo. The over spray pattern is different. That would be the 8th aircraft from the foreground. Which begs the question, Why are there three "2"s?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good question, but there they are.  The "2"  in the colour (or colourised)  pic is the aircraft fifth from the end in the mono shot of the whole row, the one just behind number 8. or one further back, it's quite hard to tell.

Edited by Work In Progress

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this period, USAAF P-40Fs delivered to NW Africa were in the RAF Desert scheme.  Those serving in the Western Desert with the 8th Army and the DAF were in Sand over Neutral Gray.

 

Assuming uncolourised, the top picture looks more like Sand than Middle Stone, the middle one entirely the reverse.  It would not be unheard of to see Sand in use on camouflaged P-40s, but perhaps not with a Dark Earth colour.  The US produced two different Dark Earths, one as light as the RAF colour and one significantly darker.  These can be seen on different colour photos.

 

I'm not entirely convinced they are different aircraft, but the one behind them is certainly different, so they very probably are.  Why should there be 2?  Probably just one of those things that happens.  Someone misheard an instruction, and the two aircraft never came into close proximity before it could be corrected?  Unfortunately we can't tell is a number is missing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The dark colour might look a bit reddish because of the hue in that picture - look at the exhaust stain and above it at the top of the cowl, it's purple. Either this picture has been badly colourized or adjusted.

 

wGDcruT.jpg

 

Here's a different version. Looks like Middle Stone and Dark Earth and I guess the insignia over paint is done with the reddy brown used on the french fighters.

 

7396b44af82ac3465eac881ee3b27b29.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW mind that - contrary to popular belief and various "serious sources" - these 25 aircraft (alhough all pictured here belong to USAAF 41-14000...14599 serial batch) are both long- (e.g. #2, 3, 7) and short-fuselage (e.g. #6, 9) P-40Fs. The mystery of two "#2"s is very simple - the one on b/w photo sports some two-digit tactical number here and "2" we do see is only the forward half of this marking. The plane next to her also features 2-digit number, in this case it's 11. Remember that there were 25 aircraft in this unit that day, so 2-digit numbers couldn't be uncommon.

Years ago I started writing a book on the P-40, but then my editors changed their mind and all documents I had landed somewhere deep in one of my drawers. I remember I had received (from the fellow French historian) the (perhaps) complete list of 100+ Merlin-engined Kittyhawks received by FAFL from RAF stocks. I hope I'll manage to find it in few hours.

Anyway IMHO the first photo looks crudely colourised. These aircraft sported RAF camouflage - perhaps in the US "equivalent" colours version.

Cheers

Michael 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

BTW mind that - contrary to popular belief and various "serious sources" - these 25 aircraft (alhough all pictured here belong to USAAF 41-14000...14599 serial batch) are both long- (e.g. #2, 3, 7) and short-fuselage (e.g. #6, 9) P-40Fs. The mystery of two "#2"s is very simple - the one on b/w photo sports some two-digit tactical number here and "2" we do see is only the forward half of this marking. The plane next to her also features 2-digit number, in this case it's 11. Remember that there were 25 aircraft in this unit that day, so 2-digit numbers couldn't be uncommon.

Years ago I started writing a book on the P-40, but then my editors changed their mind and all documents I had landed somewhere deep in one of my drawers. I remember I had received (from the fellow French historian) the (perhaps) complete list of 100+ Merlin-engined Kittyhawks received by FAFL from RAF stocks. I hope I'll manage to find it in few hours.

Anyway IMHO the first photo looks crudely colourised. These aircraft sported RAF camouflage - perhaps in the US "equivalent" colours version.

Cheers

Michael 

After looking at the photo from a fresh perspective it appears that the "2"s in the background are actually a different number with the white part of the roundel from the next aircraft forming the top part of the 2. :banghead:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And..... just to add to the overall confusion on the colors..

spacer.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some good stuff here guys, especially the short vs long F models. I will likely go with dk earth and middle stone. I reckon the roundels were painted out with whatever sticks the USAAF had, as it seems the French roundels were applied with what look like US colours rather than French. Thank you so much. Anything else welcome. 

Sean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally I dug it out, but what astonishes me most is the "calendar aspect" of the whole transfer. It is well known that the first batch of 25 a/c were passed to the French at Casablanca on 25th November 1942. And on 9th January 1943, 13 of them (these are the aircraft from the pictures above) flew to Tunisia. A week later the other dozen a/c joined them to form a squadron within the USAAF 33rd FG. Losses (mostly on the ground) were heavy and in May 1943 next 36 a/c were received and they have been flown by Groupe Lafayette until March 1944 when the whole unit received the P-47Ds. 

However, the data I have shows much later timetable (thus some significant delay at formal transfer of the a/c to the French), as there are only 5 a/c transferred in July 1942, 14 in 1943, 27 in 1944, 70 in 1945 and last 2 in May 1946. Of these there were:

  • 1 short fuselage P-40F Warhawk from USAAF stock (41-13858) in 1945
  • 25 short fuselage Kittyhawk IIAs (P-40F) from RAF stock (from 41-13764/41-14065, i.e. FL225/FL361 range) over 1942-45
  • 4 long fuselage P-40F-5/10CU Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 41-14327/41-14530 range) over 1942-45
  • 1 short fuselage P-40L-1CU Warhawk from USAAF stock (42-10478) in 1943
  • 33 long fuselage P-40L-5/10/20CU Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 42-10482/42-10970 range) over 1943-46
  • 54 long fuselage Kittyhawk IIs (P-40L-5/10CU) from RAF stock (from 42-10519/42-10793, i.e. FS400/FS499 range) in 1945

As all 13 Warhawks on the pictures sport yellow 114 on the fin (i.e. USAAF serial 41-14...) they must be P-40Fs. And of 30 P-40Fs (including RAF Kittyhawk IIAs) from this French data only 4 were long-fuselage F-5 and F-10s. However on the pictures there are only 3 or 4 short fuselages. So where is the true?

I know that taking photos against the sun wasn't popular those days but from the historical viewpoint the starboard fin side of these a/c would say us much more than the port one can.

Of course the individual histories of every P-40F manufactured could help us there. Maybe there's somebody able to find them.

Cheers

Michael

 

PS. All 118 s/ns. and FAFL transfer dates are available on PM - the tables won't fit here 😢

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, gentlemen,

 

Shouldn't they be painted in DuPont 71-035 Dark Earth over 71-069 Middle Stone? or, if timeframe allows, ANA 615 Middlestone (or 616 Sand) and 617 Dark Earth?

In both cases there should be a more or less noticeable difference to a true MAP MS/DE color scheme.

 

Undersurfaces?  DuPont 71-069 or ANA 609?

 

Fernando

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I suspect that the production of these aircraft predated AN paints.

Yep, so do I. That's why I wrote "if timeframe allows".

PD: Graham, I entered a question on FAA Wildcat colours... have you seen it?

Edited by Fernando

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, everyone,

 

This is a previous thread I found on the subject: 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, KRK4m said:

As all 13 Warhawks on the pictures sport yellow 114 on the fin (i.e. USAAF serial 41-14...) they must be P-40Fs. And of 30 P-40Fs (including RAF Kittyhawk IIAs) from this French data only 4 were long-fuselage F-5 and F-10s. However on the pictures there are only 3 or 4 short fuselages. So where is the true?

Of course the individual histories of every P-40F manufactured could help us there. Maybe there's somebody able to find them.

The answer to my question came sooner than I expected 😀

Thanks to this article http://maquette72.free.fr/themes/lafayette/P40_normal/P40_avions.php    the number of FAFL P-40F/Ls has grown up to 130 aircraft.

And it looks that almost all of these additional 12 a/c have been transferred from US stock to the French in 1942.

So the corrected numbers should be:

  • 6 short fuselage P-40F Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 41-13858/41-14289 range) over 1942-45
  • 25 short fuselage Kittyhawk IIAs (P-40F) from RAF stock (from 41-13764/41-14065, i.e. FL225/FL361 range) over 1942-45
  • 10 long fuselage P-40F-5/10CU Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 41-14319/41-14569 range) over 1942-45
  • 1 short fuselage P-40L-1CU Warhawk from USAAF stock (42-10478) in 1943
  • 33 long fuselage P-40L-5/10/20CU Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 42-10482/42-10970 range) over 1943-46
  • 55 long fuselage Kittyhawk IIs (P-40L-5/10CU) from RAF stock (from 42-10519/42-10793, i.e. FS400/FS499 range) in 1945

Any additions/corrections to above data would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I built one here if it is of any use,..... I presumed that French or US colours wee used to overpaint the previous markings on the desert scheme which appears to have been applied in the USA using equivalent colours; 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All

 

Thanks for this. Lots of great help.

 

I am thinking dupont equivilants to RAF DE/MS/AB. Are there any views on good model paint matches for these? I understand they were close but distinct. 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/01/2020 at 21:04, KRK4m said:

The answer to my question came sooner than I expected 😀

Thanks to this article http://maquette72.free.fr/themes/lafayette/P40_normal/P40_avions.php    the number of FAFL P-40F/Ls has grown up to 130 aircraft.

And it looks that almost all of these additional 12 a/c have been transferred from US stock to the French in 1942.

So the corrected numbers should be:

  • 6 short fuselage P-40F Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 41-13858/41-14289 range) over 1942-45
  • 25 short fuselage Kittyhawk IIAs (P-40F) from RAF stock (from 41-13764/41-14065, i.e. FL225/FL361 range) over 1942-45
  • 10 long fuselage P-40F-5/10CU Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 41-14319/41-14569 range) over 1942-45
  • 1 short fuselage P-40L-1CU Warhawk from USAAF stock (42-10478) in 1943
  • 33 long fuselage P-40L-5/10/20CU Warhawks from USAAF stock (from 42-10482/42-10970 range) over 1943-46
  • 55 long fuselage Kittyhawk IIs (P-40L-5/10CU) from RAF stock (from 42-10519/42-10793, i.e. FS400/FS499 range) in 1945

Any additions/corrections to above data would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Michael

Phil Butler & Dan Hagedorn's "Air Arsenal North America" (AANA) published in 2004 refers to 80 RAF Kittyhawks transferred to the French in North Afica in March 1945 for use as fighter trainers but only lists 78 individual serials. They are noted as being "properly recorded by MAC(Air) as a formal transfer, but do not appear in the formal summary accounts". It may be that some information you have supercedes what follows.

 

These airframes were

23 P-40F short fuselage Kittyhawk II - FL255 (see below), FL228,260,263,270,276,280,282,292,294,305,307,311,313,316,319,324,343,347,348,353,354, & 361.

 

1 P-40K Kittyhawk III - FR120 (42-9857). Joe Baugher also records this as passing from the RAF to the French in 1945. This transfer seems bizarre as all the other deliveries to the French were Merlin engined P-40F or L.

 

54 P-40L long fuselage Kittyhawk II - FS400,402,406,408,409,410,411,412,413,416,417,420,424,432,436,437,441,444,445,448,449,450,454,459,460,461,462,464,465,466,468,469,470,471,472,473,474,475,477,478,479,480,483,484,485,487,489,491,492,494,496,497,498 & 499.

These would be a mix of L-5 & L-10 but I've made no attempt to tie US numbers to RAF serials in my previous research.

 

The reference to FL255 is, I believe, a typo. All the serials are in numerical order except this one. I suspect this should read FL225. FL255 was lost at sea en route to the Middle East per Joe Baugher.

 

In relation to USAAF deliveries to the French in North Africa, AANA notes that an "unknown" quantity of P-40F were transferred to equip Escadrille Lafayette in 1943. It then continues "These did not appear in the final lend-lease accounts because the surviving P-40F and P-40L aircraft were returned to US control when the unit re-equipped with later types of aircraft". They then list 4 P-40F serials and 21 P-40L serials. But 11 of the P-40L serials relate to RAF aircraft I've referred to above. So that leaves 10 of which 8 appear on the French site listing. The other 2 are 42-10489 & 42-10490 which again Joe Baugher has going to the French in April 1943.

 

The serials of the P-40F were 41-14503, 14506,14514, & 14530. Joe Baugher confirms the last 3 but has the first as "condemned MIA Feb 2 1943".

 

AANA also lists 4 USAAF P-40 "...recovered from crash sites and repaired by the same RAF Maintenance Units..." (i.e. the same MUs that handed over the RAF aircraft) 41-13858 (P-40F), 14530 (P-40F-10), 20023 (P-40F-20) & 42-10970 (P-40L-20). All except the F-20 are confirmed by Joe Baugher.

 

I'm not sure how the last 3 paras fit into your summary but now my head hurts with all these numbers! Hope it helps you sort it out.

 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...