RF-4E Phantom

[Roof Rat]

Hello all

I've been going around in ever decreasing circles trying to find out from which construction block onwards did the RF-4E switch to the rounded nose profile for it's camera bays. 

Can anyone help? as always any information received will be greatly appreciated. 

Cheers

RR (Chris) 

[72modeler]

Chris,

 

This first link doesn't really help, as no serial or constructor numbers are given for the changeover, but it might be of interest.

http://www.airvectors.net/avf4_1.html#m8

 

This excerpt from Joe Baugher's Phantom website does give a little more information regarding the two type of recce noses:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_16.html

 

I'm betting one of our resident Phantom phreaks will see this and be better served to assist you. Best I can do off the top of my head!

Mike

 

[iainpeden]

It's always been a bit of a conundrum because there are examples of RF-4Bs and Cs with both noses as well as the E

However this quote from Spirit in he Sky might help.

 

"RF-4Es have been delivered with both recce nose shapes. For example The German aircraft with the angular nose of the RF-4B and early RF-4C and the Greek, Israeli and South Korean aircraft with the more stream lined nose."

 

I suspect the original Turkish ones (the ones with the later slatted wing) would have the rounder nose because only they and the Greek ones had the outer wing slates of later Es. (if you get the logic). At least some of the Japanese ones had the sleeker nose (eg 47-6902 and 57-6909)

 

 

[Hook]

4 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

 At least some of the Japanese ones had the sleeker nose (eg 47-6902 and 57-6909)

I think all Japanese Photo Phantoms had the rounded shape.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[iainpeden]

I suspect Andre is correct - the 14 RF-4EJs were built in St Louis, not under licence in Japan. I have had a quick flick through my pictures and all the Japanese ones have the later nose.

[Jens]

RF-4Es are pretty simple when it comes to nose profiles. At least it's not a mess as on the RF-4C.

All German RF-4Es had the angled nose profile (blocks 45-47). Some were later sold to Greece and Turkey, but they retained their original noses.

IDF/AF RF-4Es block 45 possible had the angled nose profile (I have confirmed some of them). All in the IDF/AF colour scheme.

IDF/AF RF-4Es block 63 possible all had the rounded nose profile. All in Compass Ghost scheme.

IIAF RF-4Es block 48 possible had the angled nose profile (I have confirmed one of them).

IIAF RF-4Es blocks 61, 62 and 68 possible all had the rounded nose profile.

All Greek RF-4Es block 66 had the rounded nose profile.

All Turkish RF-4Es block 66 had the rounded nose profile.

All JASDF RF-4Es have the rounded nose profile.

 

HTH,

 

Jens

 

[NorthBayKid]

Early IIAF RF-4Es definitely had the angled nose contours.

[Roof Rat]

Good morning 

Gentlemen I'd just like to say thank you for taking the time to reply, the information you have passed on is gratefully appreciated.

72modeler I have added the websites you suggested to my favourites,  also to help me understand the block number / aircraft serial number relation I have ordered a copy of McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Production and Operational Data from Amazon.

Thank you again.

Cheers

RR (Chris)  

[canberra kid]

John

[72modeler]

John, you never cease to amaze me with the stuff you have squirreled away!

Mike

[canberra kid]

8 hours ago, 72modeler said:

John, you never cease to amaze me with the stuff you have squirreled away!

Mike

Me too Mike 🙂

John

[Billy54]

Could I ask some related questions in regard to the kit below which I have just received?

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/finemolds-fp42-rf-4ej-reconnaissance-aircraft--1310484

 

Externally how different is this RF-4EJ different from a USAF F-4E? I realize the F-4E would (probably?) not carry the centerline TAC or LOROP pods, would there be any other differences?

 

Thanks.

[Hook]

The biggies would be the Kai specific RWR gear on the fin and wing tips. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Billy54]

Thanks Andre,

 

Perhaps I won't worry about converting this kit and just build it as per the manufacturer intended. Fine Molds have released or will be releasing US Phantoms in the near future so perhaps I'll wait and pick up one, or more, of those. 

[Silverkite]

Could be wrong due my reality shifts and the fact I barely double check my reference as I'm too lazy to even turn on my external drive with it:

Japan received around 26 or 52? F-4E USAF machines, they never returned them back as they were used to training and whatever are the things military do when you receive a new machine

Said F-4E were called F-4EJ and never received Kai upgrades even if many pictures show you otherwise

Said F-4EJ were used to (R)F-4EJ trials with all the recce pod they went through the years, some also were maybe painted with aggressor markings, then used as (R)F-4EJ duty.

Fine Molds contains new parts that will let you build a proper (R)F-4EJ, if the box contains both Kai and E parts then you just have to ignore (R)F-4EJ parts which should be all around the nose and gun area and build a common F-4E, but if the F-4EJ box only contains JSDAF missile rails then you need USAF launchers but keep in mind that those launchers are time(?) or era and operator specific things

 

On 1/15/2020 at 12:42 AM, NorthBayKid said:

Early IIAF RF-4Es definitely had the angled nose contours.

 

Somebody on an Hi-Decal thread or maybe was or the Iran thread or the now deceased Military Photos forum...said

 

When the US was still welcome in Iran people spotted RF-4Cs and maybe even an RF-4B flying white tails with IIAF markings on them, reason was that both C and B were wired for nukes so if S would HTF, US forces could nuke USSR using Iran as proxy. How true it is I don't know, but I do remember a B&W picture showing an RF-4C (due short exhaust) with IIAF camouflage, black bottom and no ID markings on tail, other picture was a pack of RF-4s with something that looked like a B due maybe the ECM mounted shoulders on the intakes but I no longer have anything, ACIG dot org probably had the RF-4C picture linked in the comment section of their dedicated IIAF page but since most stuff was either linked Imageshack and other means I doubt someone will ever find something

 

Luigi

Edited May 11, 2021 by Silverkite

[iainpeden]

I'm afraid @Silverkite is mistaken in his view that Japan received 2nd hand F-4Es from the US. Japan bought 140 F-4EJs (all unslatted); 4 were built at St Louis, 13 were delivered in kit form (2 never constructed) and the other 125 were built in Japan.

 

Greece, Turkey and South Korea did receive 2nd hand E's. Israel also got pre-used Phantoms; probably from the 401st at Torrejon in Spain (hence the pictures of SEA camo a/c with Star of David markings. There are also stories that a number of short-nose Phantoms (B's or J's) were also sent to Israel at the time of the Yom Kippur war.

 

I'd also come across the speculation about the "secret" Iranian machines.

 

With regard to the Japanese recce a/c there a discussion recently on here about RF-4Es and RF-4EJs and RF-4EJ Kais which is worth finding as "Spirit in the Sky" (World Air Power Journal) states there were 2 different models which shared the RF-4EJ Kai designation but probably didn't.

[Jens]

18 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

Greece, Turkey and South Korea did receive 2nd hand E's. Israel also got pre-used Phantoms; probably from the 401st at Torrejon in Spain (hence the pictures of SEA camo a/c with Star of David markings. There are also stories that a number of short-nose Phantoms (B's or J's) were also sent to Israel at the time of the Yom Kippur war.

 

I'd also come across the speculation about the "secret" Iranian machines.

 

With regard to the Japanese recce a/c there a discussion recently on here about RF-4Es and RF-4EJs and RF-4EJ Kais which is worth finding as "Spirit in the Sky" (World Air Power Journal) states there were 2 different models which shared the RF-4EJ Kai designation but probably didn't.

 

Egypt also received some ex-USAF F-4Es.
The story about Israeli short-nosed Phantoms are a hoax. Not one single piece of evidence has surfaced to just slightly justify the story. The stories about Iranian 'white tails' are more likely, even though I am still a bit sceptical about the operational use of those airframes.

As for JASDF RF-4Es and RF-4EJs, the original camera-nose equipped Phantoms are designated RF-4E (later upgraded to RF-4E Kai), while the converted F-4EJs are designated RF-4EJ (also upgraded to Kai standard). All Japanese Phantoms have the hard wing.

 

Jens

[Billy54]

11 hours ago, iainpeden said:

I'm afraid @Silverkite is mistaken in his view that Japan received 2nd hand F-4Es from the US. Japan bought 140 F-4EJs (all unslatted); 4 were built at St Louis, 13 were delivered in kit form (2 never constructed) and the other 125 were built in Japan.

 

Greece, Turkey and South Korea did receive 2nd hand E's. Israel also got pre-used Phantoms; probably from the 401st at Torrejon in Spain (hence the pictures of SEA camo a/c with Star of David markings. There are also stories that a number of short-nose Phantoms (B's or J's) were also sent to Israel at the time of the Yom Kippur war.

 

I'd also come across the speculation about the "secret" Iranian machines.

 

With regard to the Japanese recce a/c there a discussion recently on here about RF-4Es and RF-4EJs and RF-4EJ Kais which is worth finding as "Spirit in the Sky" (World Air Power Journal) states there were 2 different models which shared the RF-4EJ Kai designation but probably didn't.

 

I believe that I found the discussion you mentioned, it was in the "Rumourmonger" forum and after reading it  I have a better understanding of the RF-4E, F-4EJ and the RF-4EJ. 

 

I do have a further question concerning the colours on the RF-4EJ camouflage scheme, were they the same colours as the RF-4E? The Fine Molds calls out different colours (RF-4EJ) its paint instructions than does Hasegawa for its RF-4E scheme. 

 

Fine Molds (RF-4EJ): FS36081, FS34092, FS34102 (Mr Color 301, 302 303) upper camouflage and FS36375 (Mr Color 308) on the bottom.

Hasegawa (RF-4E): MR Color 319, 320, 321 upper camouflage and FS16441 (Mr Color 315) on the bottom.     

[Motty]

4 hours ago, Billy54 said:

I do have a further question concerning the colours on the RF-4EJ camouflage scheme, were they the same colours as the RF-4E? The Fine Molds calls out different colours (RF-4EJ) its paint instructions than does Hasegawa for its RF-4E scheme. 

 

Fine Molds (RF-4EJ): FS36081, FS34092, FS34102 (Mr Color 301, 302 303) upper camouflage and FS36375 (Mr Color 308) on the bottom.

Hasegawa (RF-4E): MR Color 319, 320, 321 upper camouflage and FS16441 (Mr Color 315) on the bottom.     

 

G'day Billy54,

 

No, the RF-4E and RF-4EJ Kai wore different colours.

 

Even the greens are slightly different between the two schemes. 

 

But just to muddy the waters a little further   , there were also some non-upgraded (non-Kai) RF-4EJs for a while, which retained the same colours as the RF-4Es.

This shot was taken in 2007 (note the unmodified tail and wingtips on the brown one) and the non-Kai versions were retired not long after that.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

Motty.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Motty

[iainpeden]

The other colour issue is that Japan had it's own colour system and while the very first (4) E's and the RF-4E's (which were built in St Louis) were delivered in FS colors (FS36440 I think) so FS matches aren't exact - unless anybody knows different.

There's a good book called "Defenders of Nippon: F-4 Phantom II by Fearis, Scott and Sands published by Kaburaya books which is good. You might also want to contact the Japanese Air Force SIG (Special Interest Group) of IPMS (UK) who might be able to help.

[Red Dot]

On 1/14/2020 at 3:05 PM, Hook said:

I think all Japanese Photo Phantoms had the rounded shape.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Correct

 

Andy 

[Red Dot]

6 hours ago, Billy54 said:

 

I believe that I found the discussion you mentioned, it was in the "Rumourmonger" forum and after reading it  I have a better understanding of the RF-4E, F-4EJ and the RF-4EJ. 

 

I do have a further question concerning the colours on the RF-4EJ camouflage scheme, were they the same colours as the RF-4E? The Fine Molds calls out different colours (RF-4EJ) its paint instructions than does Hasegawa for its RF-4E scheme. 

 

Fine Molds (RF-4EJ): FS36081, FS34092, FS34102 (Mr Color 301, 302 303) upper camouflage and FS36375 (Mr Color 308) on the bottom.

Hasegawa (RF-4E): MR Color 319, 320, 321 upper camouflage and FS16441 (Mr Color 315) on the bottom.     

Those  colours are very accurate for general usage, but there are variations, as has been pointed out

 

Andy 

[Red Dot]

23 hours ago, iainpeden said:

 

Whilst doing research for Japanese Phantom books, I found that the colours mentioned in the Defenders of Nippon book were a little inaccurate. It was created pre-internet and was very inspirational for its time, but things have moved on now

 

Andy

[Billy54]

6 hours ago, Motty said:

 

G'day Billy54,

 

No, the RF-4E and RF-4EJ Kai wore different colours.

 

Even the greens are slightly different between the two schemes. 

 

But just to muddy the waters a little further   , there were also some non-upgraded (non-Kai) RF-4EJs for a while, which retained the same colours as the RF-4Es.

This shot was taken in 2007 (note the unmodified tail and wingtips on the brown one) and the non-Kai versions were retired not long after that.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

Motty.

 

Hello Motty and thank you for your helpful and informative response.

 

Here's my understanding and please correct me if I am wrong, on the RF-4EJ saga.

 

In the early 1990's  the JASDF began converting 15 F-4EJ's to RF-4EJ's the enhancement being the ability to carry a photo pod on the centreline position. The 15 RF-4EJ's were not assigned the "Kai" suffix. They were painted in the Japanese specific camouflage scheme (MR Color 319, 320, 321 upper camouflage and FS16441 Mr Color 315 on the bottom.)  Presumably the F-4EJ's used in the conversion/modification/enhancement were painted in the gull grey/white scheme  (FS16640/FS 17875)? At this point the RF-4EJ and the F-4EJ (and also the USAF F-4E?) externally looked identical with different paint schemes?

 

At some point (prior to 2007?) the 15 RF-4EJ's went through an upgrade/modification at which time they were assigned the "Kai" suffix and a different camouflage scheme (FS36081, FS34092, FS34102 (Mr Color 301, 302 303) upper camouflage and FS36375 (Mr Color 308) on the bottom.) was applied in addition to the tail and wing tip modifications. Or was the "Kai" suffix only applied to F-4EJ's that went through this conversion?

 

Thanks

 

 

[Motty]

17 hours ago, Billy54 said:

 

Hello Motty and thank you for your helpful and informative response.

 

Here's my understanding and please correct me if I am wrong, on the RF-4EJ saga.

 

In the early 1990's  the JASDF began converting 15 F-4EJ's to RF-4EJ's the enhancement being the ability to carry a photo pod on the centreline position. The 15 RF-4EJ's were not assigned the "Kai" suffix. They were painted in the Japanese specific camouflage scheme (MR Color 319, 320, 321 upper camouflage and FS16441 Mr Color 315 on the bottom.)  Presumably the F-4EJ's used in the conversion/modification/enhancement were painted in the gull grey/white scheme  (FS16640/FS 17875)? At this point the RF-4EJ and the F-4EJ (and also the USAF F-4E?) externally looked identical with different paint schemes?

 

At some point (prior to 2007?) the 15 RF-4EJ's went through an upgrade/modification at which time they were assigned the "Kai" suffix and a different camouflage scheme (FS36081, FS34092, FS34102 (Mr Color 301, 302 303) upper camouflage and FS36375 (Mr Color 308) on the bottom.) was applied in addition to the tail and wing tip modifications. Or was the "Kai" suffix only applied to F-4EJ's that went through this conversion?

 

Thanks

 

 

G'day Billy54,

 

Unfortunately I can't try and get the info from my Japanese books to check, as my wife (who might be able to translate some of it for me) is away for a while.

 

But this is from the Wikipedia page on 501 Sqn and it fits what I thought was the case. i.e. The original airframes modified to RFs were Kai and non-kai to begin with, not after conversion.

 

"Starting in 1992, a total of 15 of the surplus F-4EJ fighter aircraft (seven F-4EJ and eight F-4EJ Kai (Kai means "modified")) were modified to RF-4EJ status"

 

The wiki page is here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501st_Tactical_Reconnaissance_Squadron_(JASDF)

 

Edit: I missed the other part of your question, sorry.

 

An original F-4EJ (and non-Kai RF-4EJ) would look externally like an early USAF (or RAAF etc) F-4E with the "hard wing" but not after the US ones got slatted outer wings, which was from the early 1970s onward. Japan never added slatted wings to their Phantoms.

 

Interestingly, some of the very last operational JASDF F-4s were unmodified examples at the test unit at Gifu, so they were still around until the very end.

Cheers,

Motty.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Motty
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