rob85 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I love this nose art, someone posted it on Facebook with no info other that being a b-24. Looking at the s curve I would stay something like a b-24(j?) ford built with an enlarged bomber window.... but unfortunately I don’t really know what I’m on about, I’m hoping some of you( @72modeler ) might know what they are on about? cheers Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Rob, I don't think I can be of much help on identifying your B-24, but I am flattered you thought I could. First of all, if there was more of the nose showing to see the location and style of the astrodome and type of nose turret fitted,as well as the bombardier's windows, I could be more certain. There is an excellent B-24 website that has thousands of photos of Liberators that had nose art, but they are organized by type (D,H,J, etc.) assembly plant (Consolidated Ft Worth, Tulsa, Ford, etc.) and by the name of the noseart (Witchcraft, Cottontail, etc.) Since your photo shows no name associated with the noseart, one would have to go through the entire collection. Looking at the pitot tube type and location, navigator's scanning window, and what I can see of the bombardier's observation window, I can give you some possibilities as to the version/block/assembly plant of the Lib in your photo. I got this from the outstanding MMP monograph Consolidated Mess by Allan Griffith. Here are the possibilities that I am surmising- no guarantee as to my accuracy! B-24G-1-10 NT B-24J-1-150 CO B-24J-5-105 CF In your case, I don't know if the link below will help you in this instance unless (1) you want to go through the entire photo collection (2) you want to find an interesting B-24 with nose art that you'd like to build. I'm afraid this is the best I can do- I defer to any other BM'ers out there who are better authorities than I am. Mike The B-24 Identification website- an outstanding modeler's reference, if you have the time! http://www.usaaf-in-cbi.com/Liberator_ID/Liberator_ID.htm#28 Edited January 13, 2020 by 72modeler corrected spelling, added link 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmat Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) It is probably a Ford built machine. Note the slant on the rear of the bombardier's window. Consolidated produced machines had a perpendicular rear, i.e. straight up and down. A Ford machine would generally be a B-24H but Ford produced KD kits (knock down) for other manufacturers. The small side window would indicate a machine early in the production run. The window would later been enlarged or fitted with a bubble window. Here is a B-24H -5-CF for comparison. CF means Consolidated Fort Worth but probably assembled from Ford manufactured components. Note the gentle S shaped curved line near the front of the aircraft. That's a Ford feature. It also has the nose turret. https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-24-liberator/b-24-liberator-shoo-shoo-baby/ North American produced B-24G. Seems to follow the Consolidated style bombardier's window. https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Upcoming/Photos/igphoto/2000554395/ 72nd modeler, not trying to dis your efforts. Sorry I don't have Consolidated Mess. Grant Edited January 13, 2020 by Gmat 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 No problem, Grant. I only included those models, blocks, and assembly plants whose B-24's had the small rectangular navigator's window, the shallow angled deeper bottom section and the bombardier's sighting window that had the angled back edge, which was all that was visible in Rob's posted photo. There were Consolidated J's and North American G's that had the bombardier's sighting window with a vertical rear edge, but I didn't list them as that was not a feature of the photo Rob was asking about- I was not implying that those were the only possibilities, just the only possibilities based on the photo he posted. According to the MMP book, none of the CF, FO, or DT built H's had the straight-edged bomb aimer's window. The J's were another matter! If the turret or the fairing behind it were visible, that would go a long way towards nailing the exact type, but I think Rob was more interested in finding the serial/codes/unit of the airplane he was asking about. Your comments regarding the variants you posted are correct, according to the MMP book. (He is supposed to be working on a volume 2 which will cover the prototype to the D, the foreign versions, and the PB4Y-1's and -2's...can't wait to get that one!) Mike 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Duvalier Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I love that nose art! Cheeky and well-executed. Great find, Rob. The camouflage demarcation may also be a clue as to provenance. My copy of Consolidated Mess isn't ready to hand but I know there's some info therein regarding typical paint variations from the respective assembly plants. Alan Griffiths: if you happen to read this your efforts are greatly appreciated. Also, I have cash in hand for Volume 2-- I await it eagerly, don't want to have to track it down on the secondhand market again! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 The wavy camouflage line suggests a North American built B-24G from somewhere in the Block 1/5/early -10 range according to Consolidated Mess (no bombadier scanning windows). Narrows it down to a couple of hundered airframes from the 18000+ B-24s produced! Simples! Its been 8 years since I dashed out and bought Consolidated Mess when it was ffirst published. Alan, I need my next fix!! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) A reverse image search brings that pic up with a number of Pinterest results, and it's also available as a postcard... ....which doesn't help you, of course - but it also shows up here: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/nose-art.27727/ Searches of identifiable photos (ie, named aircraft) at http://www.b24bestweb.com has them all serving with various 15AF groups... ....so assuming that, as claimed, it was taken by the same guy, it at least narrows it down to being with that particular air force... ....the majority of the camouflaged machines appear to have been with the 450th BG - the rest with the 449th... Edited January 13, 2020 by andyf117 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob85 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 I chap got in contact with me on Facebook with the below link http://www.b24bestweb.com/magneticmolly3.htm which I think is the same place you linked to @andyf117 the name is Magnetic Molly! Serial is 42-52741 and she’s a a B-24H Another chap posted this, “Magnetic Molly” of the 741st BS, 455th BG. Shot down 8/29/44. Just want some transfers now 😃 I don’t ask for much! So off I search thanks for all the knowledge guys, always helps me further my own and always impressive the amount you fellas have! Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Interesting it includes a link to the original inspiration for the artwork, which may help with colours. One of the other photos shows more of the nose, including the turret and a few more mission markings: http://www.b24bestweb.com/magneticmolly1.htm Simon Edited January 13, 2020 by Simon typo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Third from bottom, links to four pics - including one with the name applied: http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-M-MAG-MAH.htm 'Magnetic Molly' was assigned to the 740th BS - as seen in the Field Order for the mission on which the aircraft (and crew) was lost: http://www.455th.org/Missions/August 1944/PDFs/440829.pdf From the order of take-off and the formation diagram, it appears they were flying 'Tail-End Charlie' in the low section... PDF version of the 455thBG history here: http://www.455th.org/Book/Book.html Edited January 13, 2020 by andyf117 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 hours ago, EwenS said: Its been 8 years since I dashed out and bought Consolidated Mess when it was ffirst published. Alan, I need my next fix!! It's been 8 years since I failed to dash out and buy Consolidated Mess when it was first published. The one that got away: I blinked and missed it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob85 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 So really I have a clear picture of the nose art, a picture of the original inspection so a good match for colour, I even have a picture of the lettering! Hmmmmm all I need to know is how many bombing missions she had done before being lost and what the letter codes and unit markings would be. Interesting.... ha then someone to colourise it all and print them for me, hmmm forgot that bit! Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 17 hours ago, 72modeler said: The B-24 Identification website- an outstanding modeler's reference, if you have the time! http://www.usaaf-in-cbi.com/Liberator_ID/Liberator_ID.htm#28 Fantastic reference site, Mike! I checked out my B-24H-20-FO immediately. I found out that the nose art name had been changed when the aircraft was transferred, and the drawing I had relied on in 1980 depicted a hybrid (mixed up the names and codes)! Many thanks, Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 And now you have to decide whether to have it with or without the name in place. See the last photo on the b24 site. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, rob85 said: So really I have a clear picture of the nose art, a picture of the original inspection so a good match for colour, I even have a picture of the lettering! Hmmmmm all I need to know is how many bombing missions she had done before being lost and what the letter codes and unit markings would be. Interesting.... ha then someone to colourise it all and print them for me, hmmm forgot that bit! Rob 15th AF units had codes assigned but bombers never carried them - instead they wore numbers assigned within their groups/squadrons... ....on the formation plan, alongside each aircraft's 'last three' another number is shown - which is quite probably the individual aircraft ID... ....this illustration of sister ship 'Sky Wolf' shows the diamond over yellow lower fin group marking, and white rectangle squadron marking.. http://www.455th.org/Photo Gallery/images/Sky_Wolf-large.jpg Incidentally, Stephen Ambrose's "Wild Blue" book is about one man's combat service in the 455th BG... Edited January 13, 2020 by andyf117 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Talk about a group effort! Just one more reason why BM is head and shoulders above the other modeling sites for history, references, and techniques! I am so glad that everything posted by all concerned has helped Rob with his Liberator modeling project. Well done, all! Mike Edited January 14, 2020 by 72modeler corrected spelling 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, 72modeler said: Talk about a group effort! Just one more reason why BM is head and shoulders above the other modeling sites for history, references, and techniques! I am so glad that everything posted by all concerned have helped Rob with his Liberator modeling project. Well done, all! Mike And all that done in just one day! That why I hang out ( loiter ) here all the time. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmat Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 This is probably one of the best reference books about the B-24. The text is pretty accurate. Alan Blue did lots of research and produced this book in 1976. I heard that he frequents B24best web. The B-24 Liberator: A Pictorial History Hardcover – June 1, 1976 https://www.amazon.com/B-24-Liberator-Pictorial-History/dp/0684145081 I've checked Wiki and it states that the difference between the B-24H and B-24J was the nose turret. It should be that the B-24H were manufactured by Ford even if assembled by other companies from knock down kits. A "Knock Down Kit" B-24H. When Ford began building B-24s at Willow Run it was only doing sub-assemblies and parts. This led to complete airplanes in kit form which were shipped to Tulsa Oklahoma by rail for assembly. The production of these kits continued even after Willow Run started building finished airplanes. https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/840625086668234302/?lp=true B-24Js were produced at Consolidated San Diego. Here is a thread but the photos are all photobucketed. Phil Marchese is very knowledgeable but can be unsparing in his opinions. He also apparently spotted some problems with Consolidated Mess book. B-24H and J Differences http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/186785-b-24h-and-j-differences/ Here is a thread on Britmodeler about B-24 kits. On page two, Troy Smith includes a lengthy and useful comment by Byron. The B-24 1/72 problem The Academy/Minicraft B-24H box art for the Zodiac B-24H Aires shows a Ford nose but the kit is for a Consolidated nose. The only 1/72 kit that tries to approximate a Ford nose is the Academy B-24M. Look at this BM thread grafting the Academy/Minicraft B-24M nose to a Hasegawa B-24J. Minicraft B-24M nose on Hasegawa B-24 Sorry that I can't be more positive. It depends on how much you want to do. Grant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob85 Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 49 minutes ago, Gmat said: This is probably one of the best reference books about the B-24. The text is pretty accurate. Alan Blue did lots of research and produced this book in 1976. I heard that he frequents B24best web. The B-24 Liberator: A Pictorial History Hardcover – June 1, 1976 https://www.amazon.com/B-24-Liberator-Pictorial-History/dp/0684145081 I've checked Wiki and it states that the difference between the B-24H and B-24J was the nose turret. It should be that the B-24H were manufactured by Ford even if assembled by other companies from knock down kits. A "Knock Down Kit" B-24H. When Ford began building B-24s at Willow Run it was only doing sub-assemblies and parts. This led to complete airplanes in kit form which were shipped to Tulsa Oklahoma by rail for assembly. The production of these kits continued even after Willow Run started building finished airplanes. https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/840625086668234302/?lp=true B-24Js were produced at Consolidated San Diego. Here is a thread but the photos are all photobucketed. Phil Marchese is very knowledgeable but can be unsparing in his opinions. He also apparently spotted some problems with Consolidated Mess book. B-24H and J Differences http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/186785-b-24h-and-j-differences/ Here is a thread on Britmodeler about B-24 kits. On page two, Troy Smith includes a lengthy and useful comment by Byron. The B-24 1/72 problem The Academy/Minicraft B-24H box art for the Zodiac B-24H Aires shows a Ford nose but the kit is for a Consolidated nose. The only 1/72 kit that tries to approximate a Ford nose is the Academy B-24M. Look at this BM thread grafting the Academy/Minicraft B-24M nose to a Hasegawa B-24J. Minicraft B-24M nose on Hasegawa B-24 Sorry that I can't be more positive. It depends on how much you want to do. Grant Don’t worry Grant, as soon as I found out it was a H I knew it would be a pain! i was kinda hoping that you would all say “no Rob you fool that’s not a Ford nose! It’s just a nice standard b-24J which are easily bought at a high price” but that was a long shot! thanks for all that info Grant it’s a great help! I have a liberator that needs finishing (just trying it find the replacement nose as mine is screwed) and another Two b-24 D’s I can start, at my current build rate someone will have hopefully made an affordable B-24H by the time I’m done! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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