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Vinster

Any tips for Humbrol Enamel panel liner

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Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone could help I'm using Humbrol enamel panel liner and have had trouble removing it from both Tamiya lacquer x-22 clear and Windsor and newton's acrylic gloss varnish - the liner continues to stick and when I use the enamel thinners recommended for clean up it sort of eats through to the paintwork which is a problem. Anyone have any tips on this?

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Tamiya X-22 is not lacquer, it's acrylic. The problem is that the panel liner is enamel based and it will eat through the acrylic. You need a water/acrylic based panel liner which will be much kinder on the underlying acrylic paint..

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7 hours ago, Steve Noble said:

Tamiya X-22 is not lacquer, it's acrylic. The problem is that the panel liner is enamel based and it will eat through the acrylic. You need a water/acrylic based panel liner which will be much kinder on the underlying acrylic paint..

Thank you - someone gave me the exact opposite on this and said I needed enamel as they didn't react but you make more sense

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To be accurate, X-22 is sold by Tamiya as 'Lacquer Thinners'.

Worth remembering that Tamiya 'acrylic' paint is a hybrid, it has a spirit carrier, if it was a true acrylic it would be 'water' based.

Don't know if there are variants of their thinners, with a common number / identifier as Tamiya seem to have increased their paint ranges.

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I just responded to your other topic with the same question. I have to disagree with Steve, enamel weathering products can definitely be used over acrylic gloss coats, and is one of the reasons why Future as a gloss coat is still so popular.

 

How long are you letting the X-22 dry for before weathering, and then what technique are you using to remove the wash?

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On 14/01/2020 at 11:33, PhoenixII said:

To be accurate, X-22 is sold by Tamiya as 'Lacquer Thinners'

Tamiya X-22 is acrylic Gloss clear, not thinners. X-22a is acrylic thinners, not lacquer thinner.  None of the X series jar paints are lacquer/solvent based, they are acrylic based..

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4 hours ago, Shin said:

I just responded to your other topic with the same question. I have to disagree with Steve, enamel weathering products can definitely be used over acrylic gloss coats, and is one of the reasons why Future as a gloss coat is still so popular.

 

How long are you letting the X-22 dry for before weathering, and then what technique are you using to remove the wash?

The question was specifically about Tamiya X-22 gloss clear and applying an enamel wash over it. Enamel wash will destroy X-22 clear and lift it, causing it to bubble up and peel off. Future is a different question, but that's not an acrylic clear. It's a coating for floors that some people use as a coating for models. The original poster asked specifically about Tamiya X-22 gloss, not future, so my original answer still is valid. Don't put enamel based wash over it, or you won't have a gloss coat on your model for long...

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3 hours ago, Steve Noble said:

The question was specifically about Tamiya X-22 gloss clear and applying an enamel wash over it. Enamel wash will destroy X-22 clear and lift it, causing it to bubble up and peel off. Future is a different question, but that's not an acrylic clear. It's a coating for floors that some people use as a coating for models. The original poster asked specifically about Tamiya X-22 gloss, not future, so my original answer still is valid. Don't put enamel based wash over it, or you won't have a gloss coat on your model for long...

Fair point about Future Steve, but I still have to disagree with you on a few things:

 

1. Tamiya X-22 (and non-enamel X & XF paints) is marketed as an acrylic, but as @PhoenixII said, it's unofficially known as an acrylic lacquer due to it's properties. This is why it works so well thinned with Mr. Color Levelling Thinner - a lacquer thinner.

2. DO use enamel washes over acrylic gloss coats. I'm not trying to instigate anything Steve, but what you are claiming is simply demonstrably false. I have nearly a dozen models with Mig enamel products on top of Tamiya X-22 specifically. A simple google search will net you results of dozens more. Enamel washes are best used on cured acrylic or lacquer gloss coats.

3. Still don't believe me or the masses of the internet? Humbol themselves has a YouTube video entitled, "Introduction to Enamel washes". Guess what their first step is? Covering the model with an acrylic gloss coat (their acrylic Gloss Clear in this case). I believe the enamel products used in this video is exactly what Vinster is asking about. 

 

@Vinster, i asked questions about your technique because there could be a few reasons this isn't working for you. Here are some possible solutions:

1. You're not letting the X-22 enough time to dry/cure. I say 24 hours should be a minimum to be safe, but I know some people don't wait that long and it still works. 

2. You don't have complete coverage of the X-22 over your model, and the enamel thinner is attacking the paint underneath (in areas where gloss is lacking). 

3. You are using too much enamel thinner. Look in the video above -- use a paper towel or cotton bud moistened with thinner, not dripping with it. Enough thinner and/or pressing hard on the model will potentially affect/lift acrylic layers. They are "hot" chemicals after all. The excess enamel should be able to be wiped off with no or minimal pressure to the model.

4. It's possible the Humbrol thinner is just too strong. The thinner seems to be the common denominator with the Humbrol & Tamiya wash problems you're having trouble with. Have you tried any other hobby thinners? If you get a chance try Mig or AK Interactive products. I don't have Humbrol thinner so can't test with it.

5. I actually just thought of this - you don't mention what you're thinning the X-22 with (if at all). What's your process for applying the X-22?

 

Good luck, we'll try and continue to help. Hopefully the video above gets something to click in your workflow and you get the results you want. 

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Take your points onboard, however, have to disagree about Tamiya X-22 being a lacquer in any shape or form. Agree it can be thinned with lacquer thinner though. The new Tamiya LP range are the lacquer based paints. If you smell them you can clearly smell the difference. Much more noxious than the acrylics. The X range may not be pure water based, but they're definitely not lacquers. If anything, I'd say they were alcohol type acrylics..

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There was a test on fb and Youtube of all lacquer klears, including X22. X22 when cured is one of the toughest finishes available to modelers. Just don't drench it with enamel thinners.

 

Cheers,

Vedran

Edited by dragonlanceHR

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4 hours ago, Steve Noble said:

Take your points onboard, however, have to disagree about Tamiya X-22 being a lacquer in any shape or form. Agree it can be thinned with lacquer thinner though. The new Tamiya LP range are the lacquer based paints. If you smell them you can clearly smell the difference. Much more noxious than the acrylics. The X range may not be pure water based, but they're definitely not lacquers. If anything, I'd say they were alcohol type acrylics..

Thanks Steve. You're right, alcohol type acrylics may be a more apt name for it. The few lacquers I have do indeed have a much more pungent odor than the X-series Tamiya paints. 

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1 hour ago, dragonlanceHR said:

There was a test on fb and Youtube of all lacquer klears, including X22. X22 when cured is one of the toughest finishes available to modelers. Just don't drench it with enamel thinners.

 

Cheers,

Vedran

But Tamiya X-22 is not a lacquer paint, it's alcohol based acrylic. I think people generally hear acrylic and think water based. There's alcohol based acrylics which Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous fall into that category. Then there's lacquer paints of which Tamiya LP and Mr Color are..

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5 hours ago, Steve Noble said:

Take your points onboard, however, have to disagree about Tamiya X-22 being a lacquer in any shape or form. Agree it can be thinned with lacquer thinner though. The new Tamiya LP range are the lacquer based paints. If you smell them you can clearly smell the difference. Much more noxious than the acrylics. The X range may not be pure water based, but they're definitely not lacquers. If anything, I'd say they were alcohol type acrylics..

 

Agree, tamiya use a blend of water* and ethers in their 'acrylic' range - that's what makes it miscible in lacquer thinners such as Mr C LT, but also water soluable. Lacquers use mainly esters as their solvents.

It's still about 50% water, but that's much lower than others such as Vallejo etc

Edited by Dave Fleming

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15 hours ago, Shin said:

I just responded to your other topic with the same question. I have to disagree with Steve, enamel weathering products can definitely be used over acrylic gloss coats, and is one of the reasons why Future as a gloss coat is still so popular.

 

How long are you letting the X-22 dry for before weathering, and then what technique are you using to remove the wash?

Uhh, usually an hour that is probably my bad I assumed it would be similar to the paint in drying. To remove the wash I use cotton buds with a little Humbrol enamel thinner on and lightly wipe at the wash. Someone said I could use water so I may give this a try. And I apologise for the double post

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7 hours ago, Shin said:

Fair point about Future Steve, but I still have to disagree with you on a few things:

 

1. Tamiya X-22 (and non-enamel X & XF paints) is marketed as an acrylic, but as @PhoenixII said, it's unofficially known as an acrylic lacquer due to it's properties. This is why it works so well thinned with Mr. Color Levelling Thinner - a lacquer thinner.

2. DO use enamel washes over acrylic gloss coats. I'm not trying to instigate anything Steve, but what you are claiming is simply demonstrably false. I have nearly a dozen models with Mig enamel products on top of Tamiya X-22 specifically. A simple google search will net you results of dozens more. Enamel washes are best used on cured acrylic or lacquer gloss coats.

3. Still don't believe me or the masses of the internet? Humbol themselves has a YouTube video entitled, "Introduction to Enamel washes". Guess what their first step is? Covering the model with an acrylic gloss coat (their acrylic Gloss Clear in this case). I believe the enamel products used in this video is exactly what Vinster is asking about. 

 

@Vinster, i asked questions about your technique because there could be a few reasons this isn't working for you. Here are some possible solutions:

1. You're not letting the X-22 enough time to dry/cure. I say 24 hours should be a minimum to be safe, but I know some people don't wait that long and it still works. 

2. You don't have complete coverage of the X-22 over your model, and the enamel thinner is attacking the paint underneath (in areas where gloss is lacking). 

3. You are using too much enamel thinner. Look in the video above -- use a paper towel or cotton bud moistened with thinner, not dripping with it. Enough thinner and/or pressing hard on the model will potentially affect/lift acrylic layers. They are "hot" chemicals after all. The excess enamel should be able to be wiped off with no or minimal pressure to the model.

4. It's possible the Humbrol thinner is just too strong. The thinner seems to be the common denominator with the Humbrol & Tamiya wash problems you're having trouble with. Have you tried any other hobby thinners? If you get a chance try Mig or AK Interactive products. I don't have Humbrol thinner so can't test with it.

5. I actually just thought of this - you don't mention what you're thinning the X-22 with (if at all). What's your process for applying the X-22?

 

Good luck, we'll try and continue to help. Hopefully, the video above gets something to click in your workflow and you get the results you want. 

Thank you so much for all the help and I apologise for all the stress I have caused. I am thinning the X-22 with Tamiya's lacquer thinner and you are probably right about both my dry time and the Humbrol upon further research I have found the same.  I believe I have some turpentine I've heard you can use this but I am not sure if it is stronger than humbrol

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I have order some pledge revive it as I heard it is good for metal finishes and also the quantity is much larger than the tamiya varnaih but I will likely continue to use x-22 as I like it's qualities and a varnsih before cockpit weathering. I appreciate all the help and from the research I have under taking the properties of Tamiya appear to be a lacquer and I have asked other modellers on Instagram who instructed to use enamels on an acrylic coat. I apologise for the confusion I caused and once again I greatly appreciate the help.

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No need to apologize @Vinster, and I hope no one got stressed over this, we're all here to share and learn, which sometimes involves discussion and debate. I know I've learned a few things from this thread. 

 

If you have something to test it on, I wouldn't give up on the Humbrol just yet. Apply a nice layer of X-22, let sit for a day or two, and then try the washes again. See if that'll work for you. Modeling seems to be 25% tools, 25% techniques, and 50% patience. 

 

Regarding turpentine, hard to say, as there are so many brands and strengths out there. Best way would be to test, but as a general rule I would bet that hardware store turps would be much more aggressive than hobby thinners. 

 

As for my personal X-22 experience, I've thinned it successfully with Mr. Color Levelling thinner (preferred method), Tamiya X-20A, and isopropyl alcohol (91%), usually at a roughly 40% X-22/60% thinner ratio to airbrush on. I'd imagine the Tamiya Lacquer thinner you are using should be just fine. It sounds like Dave says water would work as well, but I've never attempted this. 

 

I realize you don't mention whether you are brushing or airbrushing the X-22 on - I know people have had success, but I never have been able to get acceptable coats brushing on Tamiya acrylics. 

 

It sounds like you are getting some Pledge/Future, and I know lots of modellers have had success with this as well, especially if you are hairy brushing, but I've never used it. A lot of modelers on YouTube seem to like the Mr. Color GX100 (lacquer), or Alclad Aqua Gloss (acrylic) if not using X-22 for their gloss coats. 

 

Sorry for the lot of words, hopefully you or someone else finds it valuable. Best of luck with your testing!

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19 hours ago, Shin said:

No need to apologize @Vinster, and I hope no one got stressed over this, we're all here to share and learn, which sometimes involves discussion and debate. I know I've learned a few things from this thread. 

 

If you have something to test it on, I wouldn't give up on the Humbrol just yet. Apply a nice layer of X-22, let sit for a day or two, and then try the washes again. See if that'll work for you. Modeling seems to be 25% tools, 25% techniques, and 50% patience. 

 

Regarding turpentine, hard to say, as there are so many brands and strengths out there. Best way would be to test, but as a general rule I would bet that hardware store turps would be much more aggressive than hobby thinners. 

 

As for my personal X-22 experience, I've thinned it successfully with Mr. Color Levelling thinner (preferred method), Tamiya X-20A, and isopropyl alcohol (91%), usually at a roughly 40% X-22/60% thinner ratio to airbrush on. I'd imagine the Tamiya Lacquer thinner you are using should be just fine. It sounds like Dave says water would work as well, but I've never attempted this. 

 

I realize you don't mention whether you are brushing or airbrushing the X-22 on - I know people have had success, but I never have been able to get acceptable coats brushing on Tamiya acrylics. 

 

It sounds like you are getting some Pledge/Future, and I know lots of modellers have had success with this as well, especially if you are hairy brushing, but I've never used it. A lot of modelers on YouTube seem to like the Mr. Color GX100 (lacquer), or Alclad Aqua Gloss (acrylic) if not using X-22 for their gloss coats. 

 

Sorry for the lot of words, hopefully you or someone else finds it valuable. Best of luck with your testing!

This is great advice thank you I have an old spit that I failed and could use as a test bed for the varnish. I use an airbrush and have all three of the thinners you mentioned so I could give it a go with them all and see how it goes and with pledge etc. I heard mr color varnsihes were good as was alclads and this could be something I invest in as Alclad, is aimed toward their metal line right? If not people said that pledge, tamiya etc kept the clear just not the one I was using. I'll have to find a Matt or satin varnish to create a good metal finish. I'll also try the drying period and removing the varnish as suggested

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31 minutes ago, Vinster said:

and have all three of the thinners you mentioned

 

Lighter fuel, the zippo type lighter, available in pound shops, it's very volatile, and will 'seek' extremely well, as seen on the Humbrol video. 

 

It will thin enamel paint, or oil paint. (it's what is called 'light petrol' and is basically Hexane )

see 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235052380-hurricane-airfix-72nd-fabric-wing-mki-oob/&do=findComment&comment=3296243

I used old artist oils.

I removed the excess using a brush dipped in the lighter fuel.   As with anything new, test on a scrap first.

 

My cynicism means a lot of specialist products sold to modellers can be made your self or sourced somewhere else.... Kleer/Future/Pleage is sold as floor varnish.... which is why it come in big bottles, but as self levelling acrylic varnish it's useful for modellers...

 

HTH

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1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Lighter fuel, the zippo type lighter, available in pound shops, it's very volatile, and will 'seek' extremely well, as seen on the Humbrol video. 

I'll try it with all sorts of different products and I may be able to get hold of some of this - I'll continue with humbrols thinners and I'll maybe give them a go

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On 16/01/2020 at 14:21, dragonlanceHR said:

There was a test on fb and Youtube of all lacquer klears, including X22. X22 when cured is one of the toughest finishes available to modelers. Just don't drench it with enamel thinners.

 

Cheers,

Vedran

Thank you - I think it was my fault as I wasn't drying it long enough. I saw this too so when it reacted I was a bit confused

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