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A BIG Rolls-Royce Version II 1-7-2020


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47 minutes ago, Pouln said:

Stop teasing, Chas😡. Bring us the pictures of the fruits of Davids labour.

:shrug: Now, now, I'm not teasing my friend. And I do not have a library of this build. But earlier on I did say this one would be unique in his body of work and this is the first indication. I offer it only to inspire other Rolls builders who may look in here.

I will certainly present the whole upon completion when even I learn more about it. I only know it will be packed with creative building ideas. :phew:

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Lovely project that I have been reading with interest. I have the remnants of a Pocher Rolls kit. The chassis, engine, wheels, radiator and firewall plus an old instruction book were given to me many years ago. Not sure whether to build it and scratch build bodywork or sell the bits on. I came across John Haddock's comprehensive detailing info sheets on the web about the engine and chassis. Well worth downloading it if building a Pocher Rolls. Maybe it will inspire me to do something with what I have already.

 

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5 hours ago, Noel Smith said:

 Not sure whether to build it and scratch build bodywork or sell the bits on. I came across John Haddock's comprehensive detailing info sheets on the web about the engine and chassis. Well worth downloading it if building a Pocher Rolls. Maybe it will inspire me to do something with what I have already.

 

John's drawings and tips are comprehensive and machining is helpful in creating all his details. Although his work is accurate to Phantom II's, the Pocher chassis is not - the main issue being the wheelbase. However with what you have, why not a complete chassis model, such as Haddock shows?

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On 02/11/2020 at 03:08, Codger said:

John's drawings and tips are comprehensive and machining is helpful in creating all his details. Although his work is accurate to Phantom II's, the Pocher chassis is not - the main issue being the wheelbase. However with what you have, why not a complete chassis model, such as Haddock shows?

A superdetailed Rolls chassis looks amazing. You can build it exactly as RR delivered it to the coachbuilders.

Edited by Jo NZ
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Could do that Codger and Joe1

Codger, the comment you made about the Pocher Rolls Wheelbase being wrong. I was unaware of this.

Would it be a straight forward shortening or lengthening exercise at a certain middle section of the chassis and by how much?

I am thinking about building bodywork onto the chassis as though I was a buyer specifying what I want to a coachbuilder, and using John Haddock's excellent engine and chassis detailing notes.

What I have in mind is a car with a polished aluminium bonnet (hood) and the main bodywork made as a boat tail speedster clad with brass rivetted polished wood planking.

Swept polished aluminium wings and aero screens on the bodywork. Machined aluminium dashboard and glove leather covered seats.

So the model will be a semi scratch build. Whether I will ever get around to it is another thing as there will be plenty of missing things to make.

It will certainly be one big impressive model if I can pull it off!

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14 minutes ago, Noel Smith said:

 

Codger, the comment you made about the Pocher Rolls Wheelbase being wrong. I was unaware of this.

Would it be a straight forward shortening or lengthening exercise at a certain middle section of the chassis and by how much?

 

It will certainly be one big impressive model if I can pull it off!

It assuredly would and DEMAND you drop anything else you're working on and begin it with a WIP here.:whip:

RR chassis; they were available in standard 150" wheelbase and 'Continental' (a sort of sporty version) in 144". Pocher's frame yields 146.5" (roughly), so you'd need to decide which version you're after. To help, if you don't already have it, get Raymond Gentile's Phantom II book, an excellent reference to see the cars (in their day-not as restored or modified today).

As far as where to add or subtract fame material, you only want to do it within the spring hangers front and rear. Or you'd need to fabricate new springs. Instead I'd recommend MMC's stainless PE spring sets and bronze front axle (as mine has) for their strength and accuracy.

Off hand, I imagine it may be quite difficult to achieve a graceful boat tail - this because the gas tank is a great lunk of a thing hung at the very rear of the chassis behind the differential. You may need scratch a teardrop shaped tank or an angled, flatter one like in Alfas, I hope you prove me wrong.

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Of course, some of the 'Cox Monsters' present novel ideas for gas tanks and rear treatments;

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Although accused of 'teasing' above, I showed the genius of Dave Cox in creating a straight eight RR engine (which never was in the P II) as his current project Torpedo is nearing completion. I do not have details of exactly where he lengthened the frame to accommodate it - yet. But I will present the whole car and anything Dave shares when complete.

But for your purposes, relocating or re-orienting the battery box on an exposed chassis and possibly a crossmember or two may be in the cards.

No matter, I look forward to your ideas and work. / C

 

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On 11/6/2020 at 7:42 PM, Codger said:

But I will present the whole car and anything Dave shares when complete.


The tension is building.....

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Hmm, eh, what should I say. I’m working on some stuff, mainly front window related. Updates will come in a short while. Delays due to vacation in Sweden and major landscaping work in the garden. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
31 minutes ago, Noel Smith said:

Thanks for coming back Codger. I might go for the Continental if I decide to go ahead as it will be much easier to remove a scale 2.5 inches from the chassis rather than lengthen it.  we will see!

If I follow you Noel, that would require ,312" removed from the Pocher chassis to yield a scale 144" wheelbase Conti chassis. That can easily come out of the drive shaft and brake rods or possibly shortening the transmission. However the firewall must be moved back also, for engine clearance. But attention needs be paid to tire/fender openings / match and the trunk may require shortening. Not sure, I'd need the parts in my hands once more to fiddle.

Well worth the effort  as this Gurney rendition shows. It's almost a catalog of all the Gurney trademarks - level louvers, flat hood and beautiful fenders, You'd need a Pocher Ambassador for those fenders or a set of MMC's resin ones - if you could find them:

1931-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-IIContinental1.

Hoping you post if you go ahead. :devil:

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/9/2020 at 2:44 PM, Pouln said:


The tension is building.....

Well I'm here to assure Poul and any other Pocher Rascals that I am not teasing to raise interest. I suspect that long-standing pinned topics become like furniture and we tend to not pay them attention after long periods. And I don't want any interested parties to miss this.

But I have received the bulk of the build information and near all of the David's photos and am in the process of organizing all - that's after I get myself to understand all that he is presenting in this build.

It looks to be the most altered Pocher Rolls overall (that includes the aero-engined cars and straight 12 cylinder cars seen earlier) that he has ever done. So no, not teasing. I'm hard at work assembling this material and one fact is evident; I must present it in a series of posts to bring it all to light, not just an 8 or 12 photo feature. That also gives you all a chance to ask questions, laugh or hurl invective.

As evidence of the above, here's the dashboard and forward cockpit, on David's bench, sprinkled with sanding dust - a Cox build trademark. The astute will question the large chrome lever, switch, control rods and wires scrambled on the floor. Most of us would be thrilled to accomplish the veneer dash or perfect leather alone. Can you guess what's afoot here? :shrug:

Yes, I'm teasing a tiny bit here but back soon with another full fantastic Cox journey. I doubt any can ridicule that statement when all is presented....

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Back to work...:devil:

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13 hours ago, mustang1989 said:

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!!!! Man you gotta be friggin' kidding me!! Wow!!

A. I think you broke you 'e' key. :rolleyes:

B. I've only shown you Dave's IP and a few clumps of plastic when the engine was begun - You'll be speechless when I show you the other dozens of amazing Cox concoctions....:frantic:

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At long last................

The veil of secrecy has been lifted so here is the latest creation from the far reaches of the mind of David Cox. And his cluttered workbench. The long gestation period which has tried your patience was due to numerous factors; weather, illness, complexity and of course the incorporation of zany or quaint ideas.

Yes it's a Rolls Royce and some of the bits were once in a Pocher box. But they have paid the heavy price of meeting David's saws, knives and gritty bits so that they are only recognizable by their ancestors.

The original configuration was a Phantom II torpedo but not the way Pocher would have you believe it. As you saw in an earlier post, David's magic has created a straight eight cylinder engine – from two Pocher based sixes. Although the real Phantom IV was a straight eight, this is not a replica of that engine. It IS a viable, correctly engineered version as cast and machined by Rolls.

Using mathematics known only to Archimedes, much hacking and joining of frame, body and drivetrain sections was perpetrated to accommodate the stout new addition. Not quite one of his 'Monsters', but surely a tour-de-force (again) about what skill and imagination can get out of a Pocher carton. Sit down, tighten belts and be prepared for the unexpected...

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Like making a Rolls straight 8 engine from a Pocher 6. Warning; extensive spare parts from a few kits needed for several areas of this build. Something very few of us have but David has gathered derelict kits for decades.

The technique begins by inserting a shortened cylinder block (three cylinders cut down to two) between two stock 3-cylinder blocks. A spacer is spliced into the crankcase (the lower engine block).

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Seen here is the extended crankcase with insert and the massive 9 main bearing crankshaft and 8 connecting rods. They were added for strength. For engine boffins like me some numbers; a standard Phantom II engine of 6 cylinders was 7.7 liters (468 cubic inches) with a 4.5” bore and 5.5” stroke(!) and compression was 4.75:1.

But David's enlargement to 8 would have 10.2 liters (624 cubic inches) and low RPM torque approaching 400 lb/ft – needed to urge this 5000 pound fast touring car. By contrast, my Cobra's Ford V-8 has only a 3.78” stroke but its 4.23” bore allows much more power due to camshaft design and huge breathing. Indeed it produces 502 lb/ft torque at 4800 RPM. The Rolls was designed for fast touring and lumbering around town, not racing. Rather like an irrigation engine designed to run at low RPM all day under heavy load.

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Work progresses as detail is added but the size is clearly evident. It's as big as some complete 1/24 models.

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Here David dived into his parts bin for much of what's needed. He has added spacers to the exhaust manifold and we had a small debate about that. I contended he would need two more exhaust runners to the manifold so each pair of cylinders would exhaust into one port. In his marvelous fiction-world and since this was a crossflow aluminum head, he was content to believe the exhaust routing would all take place in the casting. Well-it IS his model so who am I to nit-pick??

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Moving ahead you can see that every bit of Rolls linkage, line, hose and plumbing on the real one is on David's. There are now 16 sparkplugs, one distributor (note Alfa 8 cylinder cap), one magneto and 16 h/t leads. In true fashion the linkage from the distributor goes forward, then traverses the head and runs aft on the other side to sync with the magneto which is driven by a lengthened shaft from the generator. Two cylinder heads and two valve covers were also mated. These things take time...

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Peeking ahead into the mock-up phase, we learn that the firewall must be displaced to accommodate the new big brother. Nothing cut or added at this point, just looking and head scratching.

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A further peek at mock up shows how the engine elbows its way into its new home. To understand the enormity of what to come, note the gap from the leading edge of the hood side panel to the grille shell. Enough to make many of us duck under the covers.

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Having just described engine construction, I'll pause a bit and organize more photos for the major build details to come. But first a word of thanks to Dave Cox for freely sharing his advanced and creative techniques which we can enjoy here. Folks buy his books to see this but we are most fortunate. Possibly because I've hounded him incessantly about every facet of his work. And he loves knowing there are a few Pocher enthusiasts sprinkled across the Earth who enjoy this.

Back soon as I have a beverage and a lie-down...........:phew:

 

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The frame-up...

Lets see how a Pocher Rolls frame gets stretched for a straight 8. I realized it helps if we think of David Cox as 'Q', Agent 007 James Bond's genius engineer with a slightly evil bent. Q always sent James into action and danger with the fastest, most outrageous motorcars in The Empire. If James lived in 1932, Cox has conjured his mobile weapon-on-wheels. Don't worry, it gets even more weird from here....

Now if I follow David's rithmatic, geometry and garbled prose, essentially, the frame gets cut at the rear transmission mount, a splice added, the firewall moved back, necessitating that the steering box gets moved back – oh – and the transmission has 1/4” hacked off. And a whole bunch of exhaust pipe, brake rods, driveshaft, levers and the front drag link (steering) get extended. Whew..

Here's the start of this mayhem; the chassis rails (facing opposite directions) and the spliced-in area is right where the two, white boxing gusset plates have been added to solidify the join. There are bushed holes for crossmembers that will go in them. There are two longer white boxing plates at the frame rear at the hydraulic cylinder area for the shocks. *Note; it takes 4 frame rails just to make these two*

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The math works out like this. A 3/4” (19mm) splice is added at the cut so that everything from the transmission aft stays the same and the frame is now lengthened before it. The engine, being 1.3” longer than before, needs the firewall pushed back and it sits a bit under the stock length body's cowl.

This means the steering shaft would have an impossible angle so the steering box is relocated aft for proper geometry. It gets its own boxing plate and bushing.

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On the outside the original hole for the steering box shaft is closed over and the new location evident. This all makes a Pocher 146” wheelbase chassis, a true Rolls Royce 150” wheelbase chassis.

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Skipping ahead in construction, here are all the elements in some form of paint and somewhat tidy. Ignore the fact that the tailshaft of the transmission is gone – call it creative license...

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A closer view shows that the steering shaft clears the carburetor just as it does on garden-variety Pocher RR's and the angle is perfect. Took Dave a few thousand brain cells to figure that all out. But remember, this is the guy (He is our 'Q' – remember?) that invented a left side, chain drive steering gear for the Double Six (a straight 12, seen earlier) so this was (relatively) easy. Note extended drag link and the firewall flush mounted to frame – a Cox trademark (among dozens of others I'll show you). See that the brace to radiator is now arrow straight - and stronger.

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Further back on this side, the bobbed transmission is evident but a neat bushing for the extended driveshaft is seen, along with proper shift linkage. The steering shaft is at proper angle and a good view of the .250” lower firewall. Note the boxing plates straddle the splice and crossmembers tie it all together for strength – sorely needed as this baby get heavier by the day...

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Little evidence of hacking and joining over here.

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You'll begin to see that the Cox / Q analogy is not so far-fetched as we proceed. Questions welcomed if I can get coherent answers from Cox. Please have patience with me – I'm only the messenger.  :shrug:

 

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Correction !

I'm sure no one will be tossing and turning all night  :frantic: but I have misinformed the group (or both of you actually watching) early on, in discussion of the original Rolls engine specs. Indeed the bore is 4.25", not 4.5" and I apologize for this oversight. Please don't tell Cox.

Numbers matter....:wall:

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Along the way...

Here are some Cox features and trademarks, that add to the sum of the parts.

A standard Pocher steering wheel, with a difference; fabricated spark and ignition levers. You will see throughout that David has a talent for exceptionally fine brass work like these levers with radiused edges or graceful tapers. More on this coming up.

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But like all his Rolls builds you see that those levers have control rods that run through the steering column to the steering box and connect to – what else? - more levers! These in turn move the controls to distributor and magneto.

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The firewall comes to life with fuel and vacuum lines and again, more levers.

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Here we begin to see the general force arrangements involved. The relation of body-to-chassis-to-firewall-to grille. I added the red lines to show the paramount importance of what he strives for; a flat level hood ('bonnet' seems girlish for such a chasm to cover) top line and equally aligned tops of the side louvers. Both Phantom trademarks. Also after much experimentation, David designs an attractive belt line in styrene. This after sanding off the misguided Pocher belt plastic. Sanding dust is also a trademark of a Cox build. Note bubble level in foreground.

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Now the brass begins to sprout around the top of the coachwork. Again note the fine shapes he achieves with thin brass stock.

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This is the major brass construction of any Cox build; square channel brass frames for all windows. Note that all his Phantom torpedoes have more actual windows than Pocher supplies. Having learned it from him, I can attest as to how difficult and labor intensive this work is. Getting good 90 degree angles takes practice; getting angles less than 90 is frustratingly difficult. A belt sander is helpful. So is keeping silver solder from cluttering the inner corners – thereby blocking the 'glass' installation. Finally, the polishing, necessary for the chrome plating. Starting with fine files, then to finer grit wet/dry papers and ending with polishing cloths. Like many use the cloths on model paint finishes – this needed to get the brass completely scratch free and not just shining – but glowing. Then a trip to the platers – nothing compares to chrome on brass so prepared.

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No stone unturned – moving the cowl louvers if needed once everything else is finalized helps with side hood alignment. Caution; do not take for granted that both sides of a 4 decades old Pocher will be the same. Take pains to measure and check that warpage has not made them different. This may require that each side be made differently. The hood rear shutline will need shimming as well.

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A light coat of primer helps tie all together visually.

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A hinged, operating cowl vent is another special detail. Mesh will follow.

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To support his portly models, David likes helper springs which he fabricates to maintain ride height and stop springs from sagging. I chose solid square plastic pylons but the result is the same and both are unobtrusive.

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Lord knows what this switch is for that Q – err – Cox has fettled; Ejection seat? Cannons? Death Rays? Oil ejectors??

We'll soon see...

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