1:72 CMR Blackburn Firebrand TF Mk.V

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

3 hours ago, Beard said:

Ah, the Firebrand; allegedly described by Eric Brown as "a disaster as a deck-landing aircraft". I'll be following.

The aircraft was 39’ long (according to Wikipedia), and judged purely visually the pilot’s head was pretty much 50% of the way from spinner to tail light.  So that’s 17’ of big fuselage, fat enough to contain a Centaurus, between your eyes and the deck.  Oh, and for some reason known only to the designer you are level with the trailing edge of the wing, so you probably can’t see much to the side either.  I can see why even Winkle might have found it a challenge to judge approaching the deck in that!

[Navy Bird]

11 hours ago, CedB said:

Just a thought - is that grey stuff under the canopy in the bag some Oramask? Or is it just cardboard?

 

Alas, just cardboard. But then again, it shouldn't' be too difficult to mask the canopy.

 

8 hours ago, rob85 said:

Nic Bill, I’ve been looking forward to you starting this one! I’ll be tagging along if I may.

 

The more the merrier. Especially if y'all know anything about the Firebrand; I sure don't!   

 

7 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

The aircraft was 39’ long (according to Wikipedia), and judged purely visually the pilot’s head was pretty much 50% of the way from spinner to tail light.  So that’s 17’ of big fuselage, fat enough to contain a Centaurus, between your eyes and the deck.  Oh, and for some reason known only to the designer you are level with the trailing edge of the wing, so you probably can’t see much to the side either.  I can see why even Winkle might have found it a challenge to judge approaching the deck in that!

 

Yikes! Are there any surviving aircraft? Over 200 were built.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I'm actually working on the model - currently just detaching and cleaning up the resin. CMR say that all interior surfaces, including the cockpit, were painted with the Interior Grey-Green colour. All of the schemes contained in the kit are from 1946-1951, but I would have thought that the pit would be black by then.

 

PPS. I'm leaning towards EK747, 703 NAS, HMS Daedalus July 1947 (carrier trials). First, because it's Temperate Sea Scheme and second, because I like Daedalus. He got out of the Labyrinth with homemade wings attached with wax. How cool is that? (We won't mention his silly son.)

[Navy Bird]

As can be seen in the photos on the previous page, it's the lower edge of the fuselage halves where the casting block was attached. CMR have removed the block for you, so you just need to clean up the edge. This requires some care, as you need to keep the edge straight and in line with the upper edge. Resin sands a LOT quicker than styrene, and it's easy to overdo it. If you sand too much, the width of the bottom of the fuselage will be too small. Luckily, the one-piece wing has a portion of the fuselage cast into it, and we can measure to see what the width needs to be at that point. Like so:

 

 

This is at the trailing edge of the wing. Now when we clean up the lower edge of the fuselage, we can dry fit and measure to make sure the fuselage ends up the same width as shown here. It's also a good idea to measure to make sure the dimension at the leading edge of the wing. You can see in the following picture the areas of the lower edge of the fuselage that I've sanded.

 

 

I did this by taping a sanding stick to my workbench to immobilize (immobilise?) it. That made it easier for me to sand just the edge in question and make sure I kept everything flat and square. The front required only a little clean-up to match the wing. After test fitting, I think things look good. Before I start painting though, does anyone have an answer for the cockpit colour? Black or Interior Grey-Green? CMR say the latter for these early Firebrands.

 

However, now the cockpit is a bit too wide. Shades of Aires! Ah well, no problem as I'm well versed in the never ending saga of fitting Aires resin cockpits, so I should have the skills to tackle this.

 

Onward!   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[stevehnz]

I'm in for this too Bill, maybe a bit late but early page 2 counts as in time for me. I've long liked the Firebrand, I'm looking forward to a Valom one of these appearing one day. Meantime, I'll push & shove for a decent view with the rest of the later arrivals & enjoy the journey.

Steve.

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I don’t have a definitive answer re cockpit colour to hand, but I’ll see whether Winkle’s book (in the From The Cockpit series) sheds any light.  I’m going home this evening & will look then.  I share your instinct that it would be black, though - especially by the Mk 5.

 

Edit: having checked the book, I still cannot be 100%.  The only clear cockpit photo is of a Mk.1, which flew in 1943 and looks to have cockpit colours of that time; black panel & green sidewalls.  The later, post-War Mk.5s seem to have black cockpits, as far as can be told from more distant views.  The colour profiles (yes, I know) and colourised cover both agree.  I think you’re safe to go with black.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Navy Bird]

16 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Edit: having checked the book, I still cannot be 100%.  The only clear cockpit photo is of a Mk.1, which flew in 1943 and looks to have cockpit colours of that time; black panel & green sidewalls.  The later, post-War Mk.5s seem to have black cockpits, as far as can be told from more distant views.  The colour profiles (yes, I know) and colourised cover both agree.  I think you’re safe to go with black.

 

Thanks for looking at the book. I really appreciate it. I'm in a bit of a quandary, as CMR don't normally get their references wrong and in this case Andy White provided the data. Andy sent me a lot of good information, including a photo of his built-up cockpit and he used Grey-Green. But my brain is constantly telling me it should be black. The scheme I chose is from 1947, so I think the question is when did the switch from Grey-Green to Black occur? I wonder if @canberra kid has the answer in his amazing document library, or perhaps @71chally. When I built my two Fireflies, the FR.1 from 1945 was Grey-Green, and the TT.4 from 1955 was black. Somewhere in between those two years the switch happened.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I'm overthinking things again...

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

If it’s as early as 47, I’d go for green.  The Seafire XVII had at least some green; by the time we got to the 46/47, definitely black.  That’s exactly the same timeframe as your Firebrand.    

[71chally]

The Firebrand is one of those types that fascinate me, but alas I have very few references on it.

The only inclination that I would have is that I can't see the cockpits being repainted, and thus would lean to interior green with black IP.

 

Great to see this kit being built with your hands though Bill!

Edited January 10, 2020 by 71chally

[Hamden]

 

Don't know if @Martian Hale would have the answer to your cockpit conundrum but I know he's fairly knowledgeable in all things FAA.

 

  Roger

[canberra kid]

14 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 

Thanks for looking at the book. I really appreciate it. I'm in a bit of a quandary, as CMR don't normally get their references wrong and in this case Andy White provided the data. Andy sent me a lot of good information, including a photo of his built-up cockpit and he used Grey-Green. But my brain is constantly telling me it should be black. The scheme I chose is from 1947, so I think the question is when did the switch from Grey-Green to Black occur? I wonder if @canberra kid has the answer in his amazing document library, or perhaps @71chally. When I built my two Fireflies, the FR.1 from 1945 was Grey-Green, and the TT.4 from 1955 was black. Somewhere in between those two years the switch happened.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. I'm overthinking things again...

Hi Bill

Well, sorry to let you down old chap but I have next to nothing on this beast, for what it's worth, given the time frame I'd go with all black too. The following photos are the sum total of my info, I guess they've all been seen before, any road here they are.

 

John

[Max Headroom]

Ooh a Firebrand! I’m always in for a Navy Bird build.

 

Trevor

[Martian]

5 hours ago, Hamden said:

 

Don't know if @Martian Hale would have the answer to your cockpit conundrum but I know he's fairly knowledgeable in all things FAA.

 

  Roger

I am pretty certain, the Mk 4 and 5s had black painted cockpits. I have a very bad back at the moment and dare not try using the step ladder to get at my Pilot's Notes.

 

Martian 👽

[Navy Bird]

Wow, thanks for all the comments and advice. Despite urging from my fellow wizards, and my own intuition that the cockpit should be black, the 1948 pilot's notes photos clearly show a pit that is not black.

 

 

I say this because the switch plates in the photo are black, and the cockpit walls are certainly much lighter. I'm going to go with Grey-Green, just like CMR say to. Note that the seat looks even lighter in this photo. CMR say to paint the seat red-brown, a la WWII Spitfires. Hmm. Maybe it's just a lighting effect, and the seat should also be green. I would expect a red-brown seat to look darker than the sidewalls. I'll pull up some B&W Spitfire seat photos and see if that's the case.

 

Note also #25 in this photo, the handle. Not included with the kit, so I'll have to MacGyver one.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[rob85]

40 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

Wow, thanks for all the comments and advice. Despite urging from my fellow wizards, and my own intuition that the cockpit should be black, the 1948 pilot's notes photos clearly show a pit that is not black.

 

 

I say this because the switch plates in the photo are black, and the cockpit walls are certainly much lighter. I'm going to go with Grey-Green, just like CMR say to. Note that the seat looks even lighter in this photo. CMR say to paint the seat red-brown, a la WWII Spitfires. Hmm. Maybe it's just a lighting effect, and the seat should also be green. I would expect a red-brown seat to look darker than the sidewalls. I'll pull up some B&W Spitfire seat photos and see if that's the case.

 

Note also #25 in this photo, the handle. Not included with the kit, so I'll have to MacGyver one.

 

Cheers,

Bill

I’m glad you clarified how you found out it wasn’t black from a black and white picture.

 

I know nothing about the aircraft so can’t add any value, I just think it looks cool.

 

Rob

[mick b]

49 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

Wow, thanks for all the comments and advice. Despite urging from my fellow wizards, and my own intuition that the cockpit should be black, the 1948 pilot's notes photos clearly show a pit that is not black.

 

 

I say this because the switch plates in the photo are black, and the cockpit walls are certainly much lighter. I'm going to go with Grey-Green, just like CMR say to. Note that the seat looks even lighter in this photo. CMR say to paint the seat red-brown, a la WWII Spitfires. Hmm. Maybe it's just a lighting effect, and the seat should also be green. I would expect a red-brown seat to look darker than the sidewalls. I'll pull up some B&W Spitfire seat photos and see if that's the case.

 

Note also #25 in this photo, the handle. Not included with the kit, so I'll have to MacGyver one.

 

Cheers,

Bill

Bearing in mind these are pilots notes and therefore need to show the various switches and dials being referenced in the text one would assume they are shown in various shades of grey for clarity? I wouldn’t assume that grey green is the colour?

 

mike

[Navy Bird]

On 11/01/2020 at 12:34, rob85 said:

I’m glad you clarified how you found out it wasn’t black from a black and white picture.

 

That the sidewalls are lighter than the black switch plates and placards in the photo really jumped out at me when I first saw it. But, of course, you cannot determine a specific color from a B&W photo, as much as we'd all like to.

 

On 11/01/2020 at 12:44, mick b said:

Bearing in mind these are pilots notes and therefore need to show the various switches and dials being referenced in the text one would assume they are shown in various shades of grey for clarity? I wouldn’t assume that grey green is the colour?

 

I think it's more than an assumption. We know that cockpits changed from grey-green to black during the period in question. I don't know of any other colors the cockpits could be. For comparison, here is a photo from the Seafire 47 Pilot's Notes where I believe a black cockpit is shown.

 

 

There is not as high of a contrast between the placards and sidewalls as we see in the Firebrand photo. I think grey-green, for the specific aircraft I'm building (which is from 1947) is reasonable. I'm going to trust CMR and the folks who helped with their research, and go with grey-green. Of course, as soon as I paint it someone will come along with the original painting documentation and show me the error of my ways!  

 

Interestingly, I've looked at as many Firebrand models on the net that I can find, and other builders seem to have the same dilemma. About half of them are grey-green, the other half black. If there is any rhyme or reason to it, the early Temperate Sea Scheme models are more likely to be grey-green, whilst the later EDSG over Sky models tend to be black.

 

@72modeler - you mentioned that you have the version of this kit that has the later marking schemes. What colour is called out for the cockpit?

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Still not sure about the color of the seat though....   

 

[72modeler]

Bill,

 

I have CMR 72-158. The diagrams in the instructions call out for interior grey green on the interior, brown for the bakelite seat, and black for the back cushion,  consoles, and instrument panel. I'm no authority, but I would have thought black for the interior, except for the floor, on a late production Firebrand in the DSG/sky scheme. Doesn't help much, I'm afraid,

Mike

[mick b]

In Eric Brown’s From The Cockpit on the Firebrand there are two images of the cockpit of an early Sabre engined Firebrand and they show mostly black interior but I guess it may have changed by the later models. In another chapter one of the pilots mentioned a ‘big black shoebox’ of switches on the Port side but again I suppose this could still be in a grey green cockpit. It would be interesting to see what Roy Sutherland and co suggest for their forthcoming 48th model as he usually knows his stuff?

 

Mike

[Navy Bird]

1 hour ago, mick b said:

In another chapter one of the pilots mentioned a ‘big black shoebox’ of switches on the Port side

 

No. 6 maybe?

 

 

Preparation of the resin parts continues - removing parts from the casting blocks, cleaning up edges, etc. As I proceed with this, it's becoming apparent that a LOT of the little fiddly resin bits have suffered some damage. I've built a few CMR kits, and I've not before noticed this much damage. I've lost 2 of the 4 actuator rails that the flaps attach to, and 2 of the 4 cannons have barrel damage. I think I can repair the actuators, and I imagine Master has cannon barrels that will work for the Firebrand (although Master may have them for a different aircraft). I'll check their website.

 

I also noticed that the main gear have pegs that go into holes in the gear well (shades of injection moulding!) but one of the holes has gone missing. I counted them all - did John Lennon write a lyric about that? I'll figure out something.

 

Other than all this silly nonsense, things are indeed moving forward, even though it looks like no modelling has actually occurred yet.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[72modeler]

10 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

one of the holes has gone missing. I counted them all - did John Lennon write a lyric about that?

Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall... or a Firebrand wheel bay! (It's a sickness, I tells ya!)

Mike

[72modeler]

Bill, where did that cockpit photo you posted come from? Are there any more? I don't have the Warpaint, if that's where it came from.

Mike

[Navy Bird]

15 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Bill, where did that cockpit photo you posted come from? Are there any more? I don't have the Warpaint, if that's where it came from.

Mike

 

The two cockpit photos came from Air Publication 2208 (and amendments). I don't have the entire book, just some of the photos and drawings. Are you looking for anything in particular?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[71chally]

3 hours ago, mick b said:

Bearing in mind these are pilots notes and therefore need to show the various switches and dials being referenced in the text one would assume they are shown in various shades of grey for clarity? I wouldn’t assume that grey green is the colour?

 

mike

That is a classic green interior with black fittings shot.

As Bill says you can't determine the actual colours but by using information drawn from other types that we have greater knowledge of you can come to a logical conclusion.

 

I would think the seat would be of the classic Paxolin brown/orange type.

[72modeler]

9 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

Are you looking for anything in particular?

As Gene Wilder said in the film Blazing Saddles, "Oh, all I can get!"

Mike

[Navy Bird]

2 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

As Gene Wilder said in the film Blazing Saddles, "Oh, all I can get!"

Mike

 

PM coming. Stay tuned.

 

Cheers,

Bill