Vickers Valiant Questions

[Adam Poultney]

Ok so I have a few questions and requests about the Vickers Valiant.

 

Firstly, does anyone have a full list of all the Valiants produced? 

 

Would a 6 in the font the serials were in be the same as a 9 upsidedown (can I just turn a 9 decal upsidedown to get an accurate 6?)

 

I know there is a resin correction set for the Airfix Valiant, does anyone remember who makes it and where I can get it from?

 

What changes will I need to make in order to build the second prototype, WB215? I'd want to do this after the intake grill was removed so it'd be a bit easier and wouldn't need the super shiny silver finish.

 

What changes do I need to make for a silver painted Valiant? A production aircraft in silver is my first choice for my second Valiant.

 

[Does anyone have any photos of the serials (or lack thereof) under the wings of XD818 as it is now? ]

^^ EDIT: found answers here vv

 

No serials

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Adam Poultney

[Work In Progress]

46 minutes ago, Adam Poultney said:

Firstly, does anyone have a full list of all the Valiants produced? 

WB210

WB215

WJ954 (B2)

WP199 – WP223 (25)

WZ361 – WZ405 (41, some serials not allocated)

XD812 – XD830 (19)

XD857 – XD875 (19)

XD876 – XD893 cancelled

XE294 – XE299 cancelled

[Adam Poultney]

32 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

WB210

WB215

WJ954 (B2)

WP199 – WP223 (25)

WZ361 – WZ405 (41, some serials not allocated)

XD812 – XD830 (19)

XD857 – XD875 (19)

XD876 – XD893 cancelled

XE294 – XE299 cancelled

Thank you!

Were the XE ones and XD876-893 supposed to be B.2s? 

My Valiant knowledge is nothing like with the Vulcan or the Victor lol

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, Adam Poultney said:

Firstly, does anyone have a full list of all the Valiants produced? 

I'd recommend the Aerofax series on the Valiant (and the other V Bombers, given your interest)

Well illustrated, airframe histories, developement and project histories with drawings, copies of illustrations from the AP's etc.

12 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

WZ361 – WZ405 (41, some serials not allocated)

WZ385-WZ388 not allocated

1 hour ago, Adam Poultney said:

Would a 6 in the font the serials were in be the same as a 9 upsidedown (can I just turn a 9 decal upsidedown to get an accurate 6?)

Yes, with the proviso of check photo's of the particular airframe you're modelling

1 hour ago, Adam Poultney said:

I know there is a resin correction set for the Airfix Valiant, does anyone remember who makes it and where I can get it from?

I beleive this was mastered by @general melchett for Alistair when he ran Alleycat before Alex took over. You originally could get one big set, but it looks like Alex is nnow only selling it as 3 separate sets covering Undercarriage, Engines and Tailplanes. The website is easier to see what you're ordering, but if you want any queries answering I've found you get a better response on his Facebook page. Alex has had issues with a relative's health that have impacted his responsiveness to orders and queries in the past, but he's always come through eventually, and I'm lead to beleive things have improved in this respect recently.

1 hour ago, Adam Poultney said:

What changes will I need to make in order to build the second prototype, WB215? I'd want to do this after the intake grill was removed so it'd be a bit easier and wouldn't need the super shiny silver finish.

Developement airframe, so you need to check history and pick a specific time/date/fit. As youve noted, guide vanes in the intakes later removed, lack of eyebrow cockpit windows later fitted, lack of nose radar later fitted shallow bomb aimers blister (retained?) lack of air to air refuelling probe and associated pipework round canopy blister (never fitted?) Long range fuel tanks were fitted for the New Zealand Air Race.

1 hour ago, Adam Poultney said:

 

What changes do I need to make for a silver painted Valiant? A production aircraft in silver is my first choice for my second Valiant.

Again, check photo's and dates, but I think pretty much standard B1, check for refuelling fit and long range tanks for your subject.

 

8 minutes ago, Adam Poultney said:

Were the XE ones and XD876-893 supposed to be B.2s? 

The contracts were all for B1's, whether any would have left the line as B2's if this had gone ahead is a possibility, The B2 was tested during 1954, first flights for these batches didn't start until 56 so an early decision might have seen these reworked and delivered as B2's

[71chally]

If you can check out @general melchett superb thread (it was a 'sticky' thread at one time) on building and correcting the Airfix Valiant.

 

Unfortunately it was a product of their 'toy lookalike' period, sadly alongside their Nimrod and Canberra kits. I'm going to concrete over the trenches on mine and make it a B.2 one day.

[RichG]

29 minutes ago, 71chally said:

If you can check out @general melchett superb thread (it was a 'sticky' thread at one time) on building and correcting the Airfix Valiant.

It's still helpfully pinned at the first thread at the start of the Work in Progress section. 

 

 

The suspicion is that Airfix used some commonly available printed 1/72 plans for this kit without checking how accurate they were - not something they would ever do now and may have encouraged them to subsequently introduce techniques like LIDAR. Certainly you very rarely see Airfix  criticised  for outline accuracy issues - bit like the quality of their decals. 

 

All this talk of Valiant building is strongly encouraging me to dust down my half finished one and get cracking on it - I've got the Alley Cat resin (which I think the General helped with), and Eduard PE - so no real excuses (except time).

 

The "mighty god of fire", arriving later this year will need a stable-mate and it will be helpful to establish the best brand of white paint to use. Talking of paint does anyone know the spec for the sickly green paint colour on the interior? I matched an image of the Eduard PE closely to RAL 6037 "Pure Green" which could be close enough.

 

Rich

 

 

 

 

[general melchett]

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I'm going to concrete over the trenches on mine and make it a B.2 one day.

 

 

Funny you should mention that chally.....a combination of Readymix, Airfix, scratch build and AIM conversion set, on the bench and awaiting some TLC. (when I can find the time).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam Poultney]

8 minutes ago, general melchett said:

 

 

Funny you should mention that chally.....a combination of Readymix, Airfix, scratch build and AIM conversion set, on the bench and awaiting some TLC. (when I can find the time).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please, don't tempt me. That Valiant 2 looks awesome!

[general melchett]

Quote

Please, don't tempt me. 

Ha, thanks, the only problem, Adam, is that it all gets a bit expensive if you want to use the Alleycat and AIM sets, let alone try and find a donor kit. Well worth it if you can get hold of them though. I was fortunate in getting all three gratis as I worked on the Alleycat set, Neil Gaunt's a friend and our dearly beloved Bomber Command SIG Great Leader donated the kit. I decided, as usual, to make life difficult for myself by cutting out and detailing the flaps....be rude not to, but it was more work than it looks.

[Adam Poultney]

17 minutes ago, general melchett said:

Ha, thanks, the only problem, Adam, is that it all gets a bit expensive if you want to use the Alleycat and AIM sets, let alone try and find a donor kit. Well worth it if you can get hold of them though. I was fortunate in getting all three gratis as I worked on the Alleycat set, Neil Gaunt's a friend and our dearly beloved Bomber Command SIG Great Leader donated the kit. I decided, as usual, to make life difficult for myself by cutting out and detailing the flaps....be rude not to, but it was more work than it looks.

Stop it!!

Unnecessarily expensive? Check

PITA to get hold of a donor kit? Check

Resin parts for unnecessary complexity? Check

Rare subject hardly ever built? Check

 

I've got someone willing to sell me a kit for a very good price. So that's sorted... But I'm thinking silver early B.1

 

[general melchett]

Well, if you have someone willing to sell you one then I'd take them up on it. After talking to the chaps at Airfix recently I have a strong feeling they won't be re releasing it any time soon...(but never say never). 

 

If you want to do a silver B1, let me know which aircraft you're thinking of building and I'll see what references I have here.

[71chally]

That looks absolutely superb Melchie, lovely clean detailing!  I really do like the gloss black of the original B.2, hope it doesn't hide that lovely work though!

 

[Adam Poultney]

5 minutes ago, general melchett said:

Well, if you have someone willing to sell you one then I'd take them up on it. After talking to the chaps at Airfix recently I have a strong feeling they won't be re releasing it any time soon...(but never say never). 

 

If you want to do a silver B1, let me know which aircraft you're thinking of building and I'll see what references I have here.

I really really really want a reissue!!

Any idea why they don't want to? A V Force set would be great.....

Unless they retool it using actual LiDAR scans then I'm happy to wait!

 

I'm not fussy with which B.1 I do, just so long as it's not one of those ones with the red bits all over which just do not look good I think. Preferably one I can reuse the serials and other decals from the kit (and extra parts set) to do,  just swapping around a few numbers if that's possible to do.

I'm tempted to make the mods to do WB215 for which decals are supplied. WB210 would be insane but one member here did make moulds for conversion parts so if he still has the molds and I'd willing to cast a copy that's doable. But the shiny silver finish scares me, never tried that... 215 would be easier, and 210 goes against my general rule of avoiding aircraft in fatal non-combat crashes.

[Adam Poultney]

4 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I really do like the gloss black of the original B.2, hope it doesn't hide that lovely work though!

 

That's the one thing about the B.2 I'm not a fan of, if I were to do one I would be slightly tempted with doing a What-If of a production aircraft in camouflage, possibly one of those cancelled XE serials.

[general melchett]

Quote

I really do like the gloss black of the original B.2, hope it doesn't hide that lovely work though!

Must admit, I agree, the gloss black really suits the aircraft.  I think, personally, that gloss black would be too much in this scale so I'll go for a polished medium sheen with a little panel variation to keep things interesting, apparently WJ954 got a little tatty toward the end of her life. Talking about end of life, I'm considering putting a pair of Super Sprites on the old girl as these were tested on her in 1954, (fortunately I designed a pair for the Alleycat set and have some in the spares box), unfortunately they also caused a lot of damage when, in October 1954, the starboard pack broke away from it's harness and wrought havoc to the rear starboard fuselage and wing nacelle, resulting in a precarious emergency landing. The port Super Sprite had to be jettisoned, causing almost as much damage to the port fuselage resulting in her being grounded for months. A while later, during low-speed braking trials the right gear collapsed causing sever damage, this thought to be related to the damage caused previously. Such is test life.

 

Quote

I'm tempted to make the mods to do WB215 for which decals are supplied. WB210 would be insane but one member here did make moulds for conversion parts so if he still has the molds and I'd willing to cast a copy that's doable. But the shiny silver finish scares me, never tried that.

Well, most of what you need for WB215 is in the box, WB210 is another matter. I started building one using the Mach 2 kit which, as you can imagine wasn't the easiest starting point, it's still in a holding pattern! The best way to portray the highly polished finish would be by using either Bare Metal Polished Metal foil or aluminium kitchen foil, other than that good luck with polished Metals from the likes of AK or Alclad. The standard B1 was finished in a fairly matt silver, (many sources quote High Speed Silver, where the aluminium content oxidized leaving a very dull matt finish). Airdecal sheet 7217 include a couple of silver Honington B1s if that helps.

[Adam Poultney]

29 minutes ago, general melchett said:

 

Well, most of what you need for WB215 is in the box, WB210 is another matter. I started building one using the Mach 2 kit which, as you can imagine wasn't the easiest starting point, it's still in a holding pattern! The best way to portray the highly polished finish would be by using either Bare Metal Polished Metal foil or aluminium kitchen foil, other than that good luck with polished Metals from the likes of AK or Alclad. The standard B1 was finished in a fairly matt silver, (many sources quote High Speed Silver, where the aluminium content oxidized leaving a very dull matt finish). Airdecal sheet 7217 include a couple of silver Honington B1s if that helps.

How many Valiants do you have lol?? 

Never done foil wraps but I want to try it. '215 was painted like that early on before they removed the intake grills, so if I want to do that I'll have to model the grills which will be a pain...

I know I'd need to mod things like the gear for '215 regardless of the scheme.

[general melchett]

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How many Valiants do you have lol?? 

I have four built Airfix B1's, the B2 conversion and one still boxed, two mint-boxed Frogs (delicious with a glass of Chablis), two small Kadar/Lincoln and a 1/144th Welsh Models vac, so I'm quite keen on the old girl.

 

Quote

'215 was painted like that early on before they removed the intake grills, 

 

True, WB210 and '215 both wore polished metal finishes to begin with, the second prototype being given a dull aluminium finish soon after flight testing began. Regarding WB210, there's more to building the first prototype than adding the intake grills. The intakes were actually slots with the wing underside a lot smoother than the bulged look of the later R.A.14 Avon powered aircraft, (starting with WB215).  To get around this I got hold of two Mach 2 kits, for my sins, and just mirrored the upper wings then cut in new undercarriage bays and panel details...it worked well, scratching the individual intake vanes was another matter. The exhaust nozzles and fairings were also shorter and the tail cone a slightly different shape. The bomb aimers window was a single oval glazing, carried through to the B2, this being thoughtfully provided in the Airfix boxing.  Actually, WB215 tested the new 'spectacle' style intakes with one open and one grilled intake duct per wing, the change in style was due to excessive buffet experienced with the prototype when one engine was stopped. She first appeared publicly in her polished metal finish at the 1952 SBAC show. 

 

[Adam Poultney]

3 hours ago, general melchett said:

I have four built Airfix B1's, the B2 conversion and one still boxed, two mint-boxed Frogs (delicious with a glass of Chablis), two small Kadar/Lincoln and a 1/144th Welsh Models vac, so I'm quite keen on the old girl.

 

Wow! I think I've only seen one of your finished Airfix ones

3 hours ago, general melchett said:

True, WB210 and '215 both wore polished metal finishes to begin with, the second prototype being given a dull aluminium finish soon after flight testing began. Regarding WB210, there's more to building the first prototype than adding the intake grills. The intakes were actually slots with the wing underside a lot smoother than the bulged look of the later R.A.14 Avon powered aircraft, (starting with WB215).  To get around this I got hold of two Mach 2 kits, for my sins, and just mirrored the upper wings then cut in new undercarriage bays and panel details...it worked well, scratching the individual intake vanes was another matter. The exhaust nozzles and fairings were also shorter and the tail cone a slightly different shape. The bomb aimers window was a single oval glazing, carried through to the B2, this being thoughtfully provided in the Airfix boxing.  Actually, WB215 tested the new 'spectacle' style intakes with one open and one grilled intake duct per wing, the change in style was due to excessive buffet experienced with the prototype when one engine was stopped. She first appeared publicly in her polished metal finish at the 1952 SBAC show. 

 

I'm aware of how extensive the conversion to 210 is, looks fun but I'll probably pass this time. 

215 can't be as bad... Surely it's just the wheel wells I need to modify if it's after the grills were removed then.

Found a very nice picture after they were removed.

https://falkeeinsgreatplanes.blogspot.com/2017/06/hawker-p1127-xp831-first-flew-in.html?m=1

 

There's an image on this link that also seems to show them removed but I can't be sure as it's pretty dark in the intakes, but it's also in colour

https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/vickers-valiant

 

 

I also had this thread a while ago asking about the intakes that I just remembered about

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Adam Poultney

[general melchett]

 

 

Following the crash of WB210 and the decision to redesign the intakes, the guide vanes were trialed on WB215 only fitted to the outer intake tunnels. These were removed prior to the dull aluminium finish being applied so definitely weren't fitted when this photograph was taken. 

 

WB215 in it's polished finish with the vanes fitted to the outer intakes. (blown up small scan, hence poor quality)

 

 

Quote

215 can't be as bad... Surely it's just the wheel wells I need to modify if it's after the grills were removed then.

 

 

Correct, with the exception of the gear bays everything you need is in the kit. The leading edges of the main undercarriage bays and outer doors need to be modified as the shapes were different to production B1s. (scans taken from old magazine articles for reference only)

 

WB210 and WB215

 

 

 

Production B1

 

Also, a link to an interesting photograph showing WB215 in dull aluminium, with Super Sprites fitted. Notice the different sized exhaust cans too.

 

WB215 Farnborough 1956 with Super Sprites fitted.

 

Hope this helps...

 

[Adam Poultney]

Someone on here has done the wheel well mods and cast them, including correcting the inside of the door. If I can get a copy I'll do WB215. But certainly in dull silver without the grill, I don't hate myself quite that much lol

[general melchett]

Quote

 including correcting the inside of the door.

That's a good point, we modified the interiors of the main gear doors in the AlleyCat set as the Airfix ones are pure fiction. (We also added the long central actuator arm.) As well as redoing the main gear bays and retraction arms the nose gear bay was also redesigned to add more depth and detail..

 

 

[71chally]

It would be great to see new main wheels aswel, as the kit ones are fictitious, I guess the demand isn't there now.

 

The engine bulges in the wing and the exhausts varied a bit on the prototypes, they seem to have got progressively modified towards the production standard though.

[general melchett]

Mike Reeves did a set some while ago, which are a bit of an improvement, as you say I doubt if anyone could be persuaded to do them now.

 

 

 

 

WB210 was fitted with four R.A.3s producing a less than stellar 7,000 lbs thrust each whereas WB215 was fitted with more powerful R.A.7s from the start, altering the profile of the engine bulges. Later she was fitted with the more powerful 10,050 lbs R.A.14, which was to become the standard B.1 engine. Finally, due to higher all up weight, the B(PR) K.1 and BK Mk.1 variants were fitted with R.A.28s. 

 

To illustrate the difference, here's a scan of WB210 with the original RA.3s fitted, note also the bulges ahead of the exhaust fairings. 

 

 

 

And the R.A.28s of the B(PR)K.1

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edge]

1 hour ago, general melchett said:

Mike Reeves did a set some while ago, which are a bit of an improvement, as you say I doubt if anyone could be persuaded to do them now.

 

 

 

Nice wheels General. Don't suppose they're still available?

 

Edge

 

[71chally]

All the V-bombers were great looking aircraft, but the Valiant has to be the most elegant, especially in prototype form, there's not a misplaced bump or lump on WB210.

 

WJ954 was up there with the HP80 for the striking 'Wellsian' futuristic look, imagine a flypast with those and DH110 WG240 - the future in black!

Edited January 8, 2020 by 71chally