P_Budzik Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Did the gunner stand or remain seated when operating the upper guns in the early A-20's ? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) He sat on a swivel seat with lap belt on it. Go to AussieModeller, go to aircraft walkarounds and Boston DB-7 and there is a great set of photo's by Phil Mead that show the rear crew position on an early Boston/Havoc Edited January 4, 2020 by Sydhuey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Budzik Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 Thank you Syd ... I have all the Phil Mead images, but there are a lot of gaps in the series ... the images only cover so much. The construction of the seat allows for swiveling, but it is too far back to allow the gunner to function. I just received these images and they confirm exactly what I suspected. He could sit, but for full field of fire, he would have to stand. And I have read an account of an A-20 gunner falling out ... so this makes sense ... Douglas aircraft also had documented concern about moral issues when the gunner was completely isolated from the pilot ... Paul 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) First time I have seen a single .30 on an A-20 , must have been very early on , only ever seen twin .30's or .303's and single .50's on A-20B's and some A-20C's and open turreted G's. They must be standing on the steps on each side , I wasn't allowed in the DB-7B at Point Cook but have been in the A-20G at Amberley , I'm 5'10" and can stand in the rear section with a very slight head bow, to stand in the gunners position on the floor you would have only your head above the edge looking out, I'd say the std was to sit on the seat looking out than if you wanted to use the guns come fwd onto the steps on each side, first step for shooting horizontal to upper targets and second step with guns over side shooting at grnd targets. Edited January 5, 2020 by Sydhuey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scimitar F1 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Not sure that those 2 photos are of an A-20. Looks more like the radio op’s position on a B-17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I don’t think the fuselage is wide enough for a B-17. AIUI the radio operators gun mount was set into the glazing over his position . It was not an open position as illustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 They are an A-20, you can see the retracted canopy in the back of of the picture and the two doors which open upward were the guns are stored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 15 hours ago, Paul Budzik said: I have read an account of an A-20 gunner falling out I've never seen in the back of an A-20 but on British stuff with non-turreted dorsal guns pre-war the gunner was not strapped to the seat as a pilot would be, but rather attached to a strong-point in the rear fuselage, with what was colloquially known as a "monkey chain" connecting that strong-point to a body harness. So he had freedom to move around as required behind the gun, but not enough freedom to fall all the way out. Perhaps this was not common practice in US military circles, I've not read any gunners' accounts from that side of the Atlantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scimitar F1 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just had another look and agreed it is an A-20 Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Budzik Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Work In Progress said: I've never seen in the back of an A-20 but on British stuff with non-turreted dorsal guns pre-war the gunner was not strapped to the seat as a pilot would be, but rather attached to a strong-point in the rear fuselage, with what was colloquially known as a "monkey chain" connecting that strong-point to a body harness. So he had freedom to move around as required behind the gun, but not enough freedom to fall all the way out. Perhaps this was not common practice in US military circles, I've not read any gunners' accounts from that side of the Atlantic. Thanks WIP, Interesting bit about the "monkey chain". I was wondering if something like that was used. It does explain the grotesque cartoon. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Five Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Looking at how dangerous that looks I would imagine he sat on his massive testicles. Other than that sorry for the lack of input. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydhuey Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 When the turreted A-20G/J came out Gunners were not happy with the turret as they felt they would be trapped in the aircraft ,particularly in the low level role most A-20's did, when the turret came out the allies had secured air superiority so the powered 2 x .50's were not as critical , the turret also slowed down the aircraft because of drag and weight. Douglas was working on a powered open turret version specially for the Pacific when production stopped and went over to the A-26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Didn’t the gunner/ observer on the likes of the Bristol Fighter in WW1 enjoy similar safety features also called something similar? Not much progress in twenty years of aviation on that score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 On the Swordfish the strap attaching the TAG to the aircraft was referred to as the “anti-cavorting chain”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 no doubt some reference to the unique and eclectic culture of Naval aviation... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, JohnT said: Didn’t the gunner/ observer on the likes of the Bristol Fighter in WW1 enjoy similar safety features also called something similar? Not much progress in twenty years of aviation on that score Well, it was the same position in very much the same sort of aeroplane so the same sort fo solution was probably appropriate. I'm sure there was such a restraint fitted to the aircraft at some point in its service life, given the length of time for which the Bristol Fighter served (they were around until 1932 in RAF service by which time the monkey chain was very much in service in other types). But I don't know for sure whether it was in place in 1918. This is a jolly little discussion of gunner/observer accommodation in WW1 two-seaters: while it is light on actual facts it does at least remind one that the F.E.2 gunner was in a very precarious position indeed. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26367 Edited January 5, 2020 by Work In Progress 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 An RCAF gunner: Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Duvalier Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Thanks for all the pictures! I'm reworking a 1967 Revell A-20C to a higher standard and it has been relatively difficult to find photo references to the gunner's compartment. It's good to see you posting here, Paul. I've long admired your modeling skills and enjoy your online videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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