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brian davey

Pocher 1/8 Rolls Royce Sedanca - New Build & Member

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Last May I purchased a Pocher Rolls Royce Sedanca, which I might add was factory sealed. I have looked at all the parts which are in great shape. Since then I have purchased the Koo dvd, all the publications from MMC, and 5 related books from Watson publishing, pretty to look at but, not a lot of help.

In addition I am well on my way to acquiring all the aftermarket parts from MMC. I finally started the build in mid-November, it is everything that the world has written about Pocher’s. It is my goal to build it as a relatively recent restoration, with the addition of some super detailing, all within my abilities.

 

i would love to hear from “Codger” as all his pictures on his Sedanca build are not in with the texts, and I have no idea how to find them.

 

By the way I live in suburban Atlanta in Marietta Ga.

 

I really appreciate how supportive the members of this forum are, and feel encouraged to submit photos of my build.

 

Thanking you in advance,

Brian

 

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Yeahh ! a new Pocher's builder :)

For sure, Codger will soon respond...

 

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3 hours ago, brian davey said:

 

i would love to hear from “Codger” as all his pictures on his Sedanca build are not in with the texts, and I have no idea how to find them.

 

 

 

Look no further my friend, you've found me. I am greatly flattered you consider my car of value.  I will answer any questions and probably brow-beat you with unsolicited advice.

The first is the condition of your 4 decade old kit. Although unopened, expect warping, unsymmetrical parts and brittle plastic. Get familiar with Paul's CD but it's only a starting point. At the end of the first year I realized I was in much deeper water than Paul usually swims. By the third year I was in extremely foreign build territory. You have a long but satisfying trip planned and I hope to make it pleasant, productive and satisfying for you. There are other Pocher-Meisters here who far exceed my work such as Thierry who has warned you of my presence. :devil: Several will surely chime in.

Lastly, heres a look at 38 months of toil. Will gladly dig out anything else you wish:

IMG_6617_HI_2.jpg

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Thank you for your response!

I have indeed gone through the entire kit, it is in surprisingly good shape. Over the past few months I have purchased additional Pocher RR parts, such as sides, clear plastic, extra screws, washers and the bags with all the goodies within it (tubes, rods, copper wire etc.).

 

All the extra resources I have make it confusing as to when to install various components on the engine. I have had to take apart several parts already attached to do extra detailing and wound up using the too large screws.

 

Codger, if you can, please tell me how to find your accompanying pictures for your 74 page build, I think it might be very helpful. Also, you used solder for your engines plumbing, was that successful?

I have several sizes of solder and like the look of it.

 

Again, thanks.

 

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I will figure out how to post pictures of my progress so far, it looks like every other Pocher RR engine.

You guys can critique as you like, having spent a boatload of $, I really would like to have it look the best I can, you can help!

I have infinite patience as I am a classically trained musician and know the value of careful preparation and execution.

Thanks.

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Welcome to the madhouse, Bri. ….you're in good company. The wealth of skill and knowledge on all things Pocher is abundant in these pages. Heed their words and you will end up with fantastic results.

22 hours ago, brian davey said:

addition of some super detailing, all within my abilities

that's what I like to hear:D ...the devil is in the details...

 

20 minutes ago, brian davey said:

have infinite patience

you'll need it :lol:

 

I look forward to following along, if I may.

 

Cheers,H

 

 

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Ooh, infinite patience, I would like some of that!

 

Welcome to the forums and good luck with your build, I won't be of any help myself but some people are probably chomping at the bit 🙂 

 

I'll just sit back and watch your progress!

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1 hour ago, brian davey said:

Thank you for your response!

I have indeed gone through the entire kit, it is in surprisingly good shape. Over the past few months I have purchased additional Pocher RR parts, such as sides, clear plastic, extra screws, washers and the bags with all the goodies within it (tubes, rods, copper wire etc.).

 

All the extra resources I have make it confusing as to when to install various components on the engine. I have had to take apart several parts already attached to do extra detailing and wound up using the too large screws.

 

Codger, if you can, please tell me how to find your accompanying pictures for your 74 page build, I think it might be very helpful. Also, you used solder for your engines plumbing, was that successful?

I have several sizes of solder and like the look of it.

 

Again, thanks.

 

Brian, Your training and approach are very good for this type of build, especially if you want to venture into an advanced build. Patience and a firm idea of what you want to wind up with is vital.

I will see what I can do about a full thread with the pix and get back to you. Before you go much further, especially with expenses on custom parts, let me present some givens. Again, this all depends on have far down the road you want to go with accuracy and detail.

As Koo describes, the very earliest kits (mine) have the worst plastic. But you can work around them and improve them as I did. That's the one in this box:

2.jpg

The extent of my changes can be seen in the comparison of mine to this box art. I'll go into detailed pix as you wish. But you don't have to build what I did.

Buying the bling from MMC is fine (studying the built models there helps you determine what you like and don't like) but you need to establish a square, true car before adding details. The seats, all windows, carpet and most of the chassis detail are rubbish. If you wish to go far enough, you will get proficient with leather work, fabrics, veneer, Lexan, design changes and your own model engineering. If you're on  a tight budget, careful assembly goes a long way to a very presentable stock model. Koo has his nice box-stock, blue and silver car on his disc and it shows how well an out-of-box build can look. But the ride height, roof height and hood slope,  among other things, are the most glaring faults of the kit.

Yes, solder works fine as did brass channel, tube, rod, sheet and aluminum down to .005 thick.

It's important to remember that this is a 'made-up' car by Pocher - it is not a particular chassis number prototype. There are bits designed by various coachbuilders on it. Remember, the factory provided only the chassis and running gear and coachbuilders built the bespoke bodies.

I strongly recommend you acquire quality references on the Phantom II, not only from web pix but in print books. My 'bible' for the build is Raymond Gentile's book 'The R-R Phantom II Continental.' His own car is a stunning example. It has pix and descriptions of almost every P-II ever made between 1929 and 34. Also check the country's concour sites like Amelia Island.

I'm sorry if I over-whelm you with too much at once but there's a lot to digest if you're going for any more than a 'snap-tite' version. It seems you are, by your thorough explanation of your philosophy.

Almost forgot- give yourself 3 times the number of tools and workspace you think you'll need. Be prepared to alienate those that love you. Lock your pets outdoors. :whip:

Yes, you have contacted a true wacko so be careful. :mental:If this gets overbearing, feel free to say so.

Here's a couple of snaps to show you how far down the hole you can go. The ride height, proportions and most important, the cowl height determine how close you'll get to 'real'. They all need major improving, cause Pocher made a lot of concessions for the ability to get the plastic thickness structurally strong - not to get them like the prototype. Pocher made a lot of things convenient, not accurately. If you choose that path, we can talk about it. I advise you to post a photo or two to get your thread going :

IMG-6615-M.jpg

CAPTION-11.jpg

 

12.jpg

C

 

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Brian - Best of luck.  Looking forward to the posts. 

Codger - Damn fine work!  Damn fine work. 

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I also purchased my Rolls a little while ago and was totally floored by Codgers work of art.

Then I was very upset when they removed the photos.

Have you ever thought of downloading the pictures onto a disc Codger?

i would certainly jump in line for one.

i am slowly moving along with the engine oil lines right now.

Tried to get pictures to go but nothing works.

 

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Well Mr. C,

 

I think there's not only those wishing to build a RR, there's even more of us mere mortals wishing the pictures would return to your epic thread. Maybe getting them all back is a huge lot asked. But getting key pictures back where you described techniques and traps for the uninitiated would be a goldmine of information. For all of us. We all know how persuasive you can be when it comes to superdetailing and large scale builds. Maybe we should start being persuasive to get us some pictures back :P

 

Throwing them into a zip file or onto a disk would probably also be a good idea, though the thread to understand what was going on would be missing.

 

My best wishes to all you large scale guys and superdetailers,

Jan

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13 hours ago, detailjunkie said:

I also purchased my Rolls a little while ago and was totally floored by Codgers work of art.

Then I was very upset when they removed the photos.

Tried to get pictures to go but nothing works.

 

Thank you Brian, junkie and Jan- Am exploring how to get the thread to live again.

Junkie - Suggest you try www.postimg.cc to get your pix going-free and works perfectly.

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Greetings,

Thank you all for your encouragement.

 

-I have purchased the R. Gentile book, plus the other Dalton Watson RR books.

- I have purchased just about everything from MMC, only thing left are the headlights and their spring kit, plus a few other fiddly things.

- Codger, I have been marveling at your RR, it is truly a piece of art!

- Detailjunkie, I am wondering what Pocher RR you are working on.

- I am not sure how to load pics, any help?

- My work tables are 10’x11’, “L shaped” the depth is just under 3’.

 

Now, Codger, I plan on copying your firewall, which is in my capabilities.

As for all the brass additions to the engine, I have no clue as to how to make those parts (from JRH tutorial), I have never worked with metal before.

Can the tower next to the carb be manufactured in plastic, and all the other doodads as well?

 

I have Copper wire in .5, 1, 1.5, 2mm & Solder in .5, 1, 2mm, is that what I need to copy your work on the firewall.

I also have an assortment of plastic tubing and hard wire of all diameters.

 

I will be starting on the Koo dvd, Engine part II. 

Thank you for your guidance,

BWD

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One things for sure...you couldn't have a better 'mentor' than our Codger for this build.

I look forward to seeing some pics of your gathered bits and pieces, plus some progress pics to follow.

Best of luck with your build.

 

Regards

 

Ron

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Posted (edited)

OK Brian, some quick and dirty triage to get you started.

Reference: Good start on the books. Look at lots of P-II's to choose a direction to go. Web has some excellent pix.

Thread pictures: Go to Postimg.cc and create an account (easy). A default gallery will appear with several 'upload' buttons. Click one and choose from your photos one at a time. It will take your photo onto the screen with a 'share' icon. Click that and select the 'Direct link' command and click 'copy'. Now with the Brit site open on another screen, right click in your thread post exactly where you want the photo to appear - and paste!

10-R.jpg

See? It will !

Work space: You're good! Mine was a drafting table, 2 card tables and a 'stolen' night table !

The firewall: the original was cast aluminum. FIRST WARNING: the wire shielding run molded on by Pocher is completely wrong. Mine is scratched from flattened ally tube with ally strip brackets in the correct position (behind the Autovac) but you almost see none of this in the car-so decide how crazy you want to go. Reference is your best friend. The fittings on the Autovac (vacuum fuel pump) are 00-90 nuts and brass wires. The various wires and tubes are brass and radiator shutter linkage a  mix of plastic and brass. The finish is a combination of Alclad, Rub'nBuff and graphite for that glow of ally that gets heat and oil sweat. . WARNING: Nothing on my car is just one 'paint color' - all the finishes are built up of several art materials. I show most of this in my thread which I am trying to reconstruct as we speak.

Engine linkages: Yes it can be a mix of plastic and metal but correct reference is vital part. John's link and drawings are masterworks and I used them as a partial guide to where/what everything was. But I do not have his machining and material capabilities so I came as close as I could with what I had.

MMC parts: They're all good BUT- the front springs are 3mm too long. But mine has the stainless springs and bronze axle. Excellent for strength and no sagging. The transmission linkages are a waste of money unless you build a separated display engine.

General heads-up: Starting with details like the firewall are best done later on. My suggestion is to acquire a philosophy of how you want the car to look or a prototype to copy. I did not want to build a chopped and channeled hot rod- but I used all those techniques to get the custom coachwork look I envisioned. To get the proportions I wanted I lowered the firewall .250, ground all the detail off the top of the gearbox and bellhousing, ground-down the tops of the crossmembers, pie-cut the roof from 13mm to 4mm, cut the windscreen 5mm, trimmed 7mm off the bottom of the body, scratched new sheet flooring with clearance slots and a host of other hacking and dicing. Here's a view of some of this work:

 

CAPTION-7.jpg

If you want to go that far-be fearless and disregard the rarity of the kit.

BUT DECIDE FIRST. DETAILS later, Again, I hope to be able to present those techniques presently.

 

I gave myself a headache. More soon...:mental:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Codger

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3 hours ago, brian davey said:

Greetings,

Thank you all for your encouragement.

 

-I have purchased the R. Gentile book, plus the other Dalton Watson RR books.

- I have purchased just about everything from MMC, only thing left are the headlights and their spring kit, plus a few other fiddly things.

- Codger, I have been marveling at your RR, it is truly a piece of art!

- Detailjunkie, I am wondering what Pocher RR you are working on.

- I am not sure how to load pics, any help?

- My work tables are 10’x11’, “L shaped” the depth is just under 3’.

 

Now, Codger, I plan on copying your firewall, which is in my capabilities.

As for all the brass additions to the engine, I have no clue as to how to make those parts (from JRH tutorial), I have never worked with metal before.

Can the tower next to the carb be manufactured in plastic, and all the other doodads as well?

 

I have Copper wire in .5, 1, 1.5, 2mm & Solder in .5, 1, 2mm, is that what I need to copy your work on the firewall.

I also have an assortment of plastic tubing and hard wire of all diameters.

 

I will be starting on the Koo dvd, Engine part II. 

Thank you for your guidance,

BWD

I am just at that stage Brian and used plastic to raise the distributor base up 3mm. 

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23 hours ago, detailjunkie said:

I also purchased my Rolls a little while ago and was totally floored by Codgers work of art.

Then I was very upset when they removed the photos.

Have you ever thought of downloading the pictures onto a disc Codger?

i would certainly jump in line for one.

i am slowly moving along with the engine oil lines right now.

Tried to get pictures to go but nothing works.

 

GSTP2djUiM3s

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Thankyou for your comments.

 

I am having issues with the timing gears - it seems that the gear located on the brass shaft sits higher then the three other gears, so, the three gears spin with the brass shaft in place just a bit, then stop working.

I have tried turning the gears upside down etc. I even have a second set of gears and a second brass shaft.

Further, when I put the timing case on, it is even worse, I did follow the dvd to the letter, I am at a loss.wq

Perhaps not having the gears working might be a solution, certainly not what I want.

 

Progress continues on the other parts of the lower engine.

 

Tomorrow I will attempt to load some pics.

 

Codger, I want to model this project after Gurney Nutting Sedanca. I also have 3 Revell models (1/16) of the R Gentile Sedanca. 
More to follow...

 

 

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1 hour ago, brian davey said:

Codger, I want to model this project after Gurney Nutting Sedanca. I also have 3 Revell models (1/16) of the R Gentile Sedanca. 

More to follow...

 

 

Brian, I too am a Gurney as well as Barker fan of P-II's.

Here's a good example:

20.jpg

This is similar to what Pocher gives you in the belt line and top treatment. But you'd need to source either Torpedo or Ambassador full fenders - so be prepared to accept compromise by using the kit's flying fenders. Note the dead-straight hood, the even louvers (and number of them) on hood and cowl and the shorter trunk. These are Rolls trademarks among the coachbuilders. Pocher gets this totally wrong; as I did, you'd need to lower the firewall .250, create a new floor, and cut the windshield and top as I show in previous post.

Here's a fine, stock Pocher car from Marvin at MMC. Note the high body and seats, sloped hood and louver misalignment:

profile1.jpg

I will tell you the Revell smaller cars are of little value for the scope of this project. Gentile's car is a classic hallmark of the marque.

If you have chosen the adventure of building all the features Pocher gives you, I will tell you I went a different way. My car has no timing gears, valvetrain or brakes, closed trunk and only the front and rearmost crankthrows to align the transmission (which has no linkage) and front pulley. Indeed, only my doors are operable. My thought and subsequent experience is that NO ONE will operate these parts (they all have poor leverages and durability) and unless you build a cut-away, your efforts will go unseen. You will not let children play with it on the rug, I'm sure.

You can however, add layers and layers of visible detail which will give you great visual satisfaction.

So I say spend your money wisely (tools like the MMC screw-starter, 00-90 and 0-80 socket wrenches, bags of Scale Hardware bolts/nuts and pins) and they will add satisfaction and skill to the build experience.

As a general note, I am gathering the material to make my build thread functional and useful again.

More soon.

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Codger - I already have the MMC tools you suggested and more, plus, and the additional screws.

 

Jo NZ -  thank you for the link, I even signed up to that site.

 I purchased the Ambassador Fenders as I like the look of those over the kit fenders. 
 

I am in agreement that those supposed working gears will not happen, I spent over 3 weeks trying to make them work, wasting precious time on the build, as I said I have patience, hate not having them work.

Plan on adding most of the other parts even if they don’t work, mostly for the experience. Except for the windows, when the RR goes into the glass case w/mirrored base, that’s where it will stay.

 

i know this is thinking ahead, but I’m fairly sure that I plan to model the care in navy and cream paint and the interior in light ivory with curly maple wood. Shamelessly copying the model in “Building the Pocher Sedanca”, going after an American look, complete with wide whitewall and upgraded lights, spot light, running lights and driving light. Plus, I want to add a second spare tire off the trunk (boot). And finally, working lights all over.

qNOW, all I have to do is find a 6th wheel without buying another entire model - Any Ideas....?....?

 

I know that I have a long ways to go, but, I like to have a plan.

 

Finally, I have read in various books and Codgers stunning example that lowering the body is crucial for the best appearance, I have know idea as to how to do that, but I want to.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts.

Gratefully,

BWmD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, brian davey said:

Codger - I already have the MMC tools you suggested and more, plus, and the additional screws.

 

Jo NZ -  thank you for the link, I even signed up to that site.

 I purchased the Ambassador Fenders as I like the look of those over the kit fenders. 
 

I am in agreement that those supposed working gears will not happen, I spent over 3 weeks trying to make them work, wasting precious time on the build, as I said I have patience, hate not having them work.

Plan on adding most of the other parts even if they don’t work, mostly for the experience. Except for the windows, when the RR goes into the glass case w/mirrored base, that’s where it will stay.

 

i know this is thinking ahead, but I’m fairly sure that I plan to model the care in navy and cream paint and the interior in light ivory with curly maple wood. Shamelessly copying the model in “Building the Pocher Sedanca”, going after an American look, complete with wide whitewall and upgraded lights, spot light, running lights and driving light. Plus, I want to add a second spare tire off the trunk (boot). And finally, working lights all over.

qNOW, all I have to do is find a 6th wheel without buying another entire model - Any Ideas....?....?

 

I know that I have a long ways to go, but, I like to have a plan.

 

Finally, I have read in various books and Codgers stunning example that lowering the body is crucial for the best appearance, I have know idea as to how to do that, but I want to.

 

In order:

Good you have the most useful tools. Buy some 2mm threaded rod and 2mm nuts. I'll be showing you how useful they will be.

 

Good about realizing the fruitless work involved in the 'working' parts. You will be adding much more detail to advance your skills and have visible, than them.

 

Great-you have a plan and cloning that car is a fine goal. A word about it and its builder. It was built for a customer in 2004 by David Cox. He is a commission Pocher builder and this is his website. Browse its photo album for extraordinary Pochers.:

http://www.detailedmodelcars.com/ 

His contact email is DAVE COX <dmcbuilder45@gmail.com> He is very generous about advice and information. David shared many of his advanced techniques with me over a four year period. I commissioned him to make the running board strips, door latch cams, landau bars and hood pivot for me - these far from my skill set. He is also a junkie for operating lights-his Star of India has 22 !

You can easily find extra wheels and parts on ebay.

 

I will be showing you how to lower the body, make Lexan windows and brass frames (to be chrome plated) and dozens of other advanced features presently. I am diligently working to resurrect my thread so it has some value for Rolls lovers. More soon.

C

 

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I'm neither a large scale nor a Pocher builder, but I love watching these - and with Codger in on it as "honorary advisor" it should definitely be worth following!

 

Have fun!

 

Ian

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