klr Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) On 1/3/2020 at 3:40 AM, Phantome said: Thanks! Will correct that in a bit. The USAF page is still in draft form so there's probably quite a number of errors/typos still Many thanks, these are wonderful resources ... although they will undoubtedly cause me to re-think some of what I (thought) I knew for certain. I should have known better than that (sigh). Re typos: The USN page has references to non-spectacular instead of non-specular ... a sure case of your spell checker thinking it knows better than you! I read somewhere in a reference work that Glossy Sea Blue (instead of Satin/NS) was used on the upper wings and/or upper fuselages of some WW II USN aircraft in the 3-colour "mid war" scheme. Unfortunately, I only had the reference on loan, and have since returned it, and I can't remember what it was called. I am thinking of building a series of USN carrier aircraft from early/mid-1942. I need a suitable match for the upper surface Blue Gray, preferably in the Humbrol or Revell ranges, but your tables have nothing listed. I am leaning towards Humbrol 145: It's a bit light "by the book", but based on period colour photos/newsreel of in-service aircraft (and even with all the limitations of both), it somehow feels "about right" to me. EDIT: For what it's worth, I just checked the IPMS Stockholm colour charts for Xtracolor. In addition to X162 (NS blue grey, mapped to FS 35189 matt/NS finish), it also has X126 Dk blue/grey, which it maps to FS 15237 (being the usual Xtracolor gloss finish), which it maps in turn to Humbrol 145. Edited January 13, 2020 by klr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 hours ago, klr said: Many thanks, these are wonderful resources ... although they will undoubtedly cause me to re-think some of what I (thought) I knew for certain. I should have known better than that (sigh). Re typos: The USN page has references to non-spectacular instead of non-specular ... a sure case of your spell checker thinking it knows better than you! I read somewhere in a reference work that Glossy Sea Blue (instead of Satin/NS) was used on the upper wings and/or upper fuselages of some WW II USN aircraft in the 3-colour "mid war" scheme. Unfortunately, I only had the reference on loan, and have since returned it, and I can't remember what it was called. I am thinking of building a series of USN carrier aircraft from early/mid-1942. I need a suitable match for the upper surface Blue Gray, preferably in the Humbrol or Revell ranges, but your tables have nothing listed. I am leaning towards Humbrol 145: It's a bit light "by the book", but based on period colour photos/newsreel of in-service aircraft (and even with all the limitations of both), it somehow feels "about right" to me. EDIT: For what it's worth, I just checked the IPMS Stockholm colour charts for Xtracolor. In addition to X162 (NS blue grey, mapped to FS 35189 matt/NS finish), it also has X126 Dk blue/grey, which it maps to FS 15237 (being the usual Xtracolor gloss finish), which it maps in turn to Humbrol 145. Thanks for the typo note... I would prefer the poor spell checker not be blamed for my own mistakes though! All the (authoritative) references I've seen to the 3-tone scheme have suggested semi-gloss Sea Blue on the wings, namely the Monogram guide and (IIRC) the Thomas Doll book, plus numerous BM threads. So I'm keeping that as is unless there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary As for the blue-grays, I'm afraid those are not well represented in some of the more popular ranges which means you will have to do some mixing. On the plus side, that color looks so widely different on so many photos you can get away with a less than exact match! FS 15237 might be a bit too gray for my tastes, though probably suitable for the later version of the color seen on some Avengers (see the last photo I put in that section). The M-485 are a confusing subject I might confess... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 Recent update: FLEET AIR ARM ADDED Like the USN page, this one includes both WW2 and post-war schemes as well as helicopters (which I knew absolutely zero about so was rather fun to research) http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rnfaa Sadly I do not have any decent written references for Admiralty orders or things of the sort to pinpont exact dates in which new schemes were introduced. If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be great. And as usual, any glaring errors or controversies (thankfully no Tropical Land Scheme here :P), do let me know! 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfman Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Thank you Phantome for your tremendous effort, I will find this amazingly useful. Wulfman . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 A big thanks from me too. Your hard work and attention to detail will I'm sure, be invaluable to many modellers both now and in the future. Thanks again. Chris. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 On 02/01/2020 at 15:20, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Nice work, although I think your FS15042 equivalence to wartime Sea Blues rather than the 1947 revision to ANA623 is back-to-front. Also, whilst not intentional ANA606 was a distinct hue from ANA607. On 04/01/2020 at 05:43, Phantome said: Hi Jamie, I got the information about ANA606/607 from a comment by Nick Millman here, where he states that the difference is not on hue but on reflectivity which would make sense to me. If you have a reference that says otherwise, do share it so I can make mention of both claims on the page https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234936069-sbd-5-dauntless-colour-scheme/&do=findComment&comment=1259160 As for the FS15042 reference... I understand that it superseded the post-war ANA 623 but here is where I have digressed somewhat from the experts. From personal observation, I have found that the GSB seen on Korean war / 1950s aircraft is noticeably bluer and lighter than the wartime version. Granted, you will probably find a photo where it is very dark... just as you will find a wartime photo where it is blue enough. However, there are tones of blue seen on some post-war planes that just seem completely out of place for a wartime aircraft. I came from this conclusion not by finding just one photo that was "too blue" but a huge amount. I feel this blue is closer to 15044 (insignia blue) than it is to 15042, which might be why all companies stopped painting the insignia blues by then (as opposed to just Grumman in WW2... and only on some aircraft). See this post: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2012/06/sea-blue-vs-insignia-blue.html And both wartime and post-war aircraft here: https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Corsair/F4U-Corsair.html In contrast, FS 15042 is very dark, at least based on the XYZ values from FED-STD-595C. And has a gray-greenish hue. To my eyes at least, it looks like the wartime shade much more than the post-war one. Perhaps the color chips are more similar to the post-war, unfortunately I have never seen them. But I do trust mine eyes and I did score a 0 on this (highest score) so I have reason to believe I have something going for this bold claim! https://www.pantone.com/color-intelligence/color-education/color-iq-test As for the paints, I typically use Gunze and I recently painted a Corsair and Hellcat with Gunze H54 ("Midnight Blue") and they looked perfect. I have also painted post-war corsairs in Tamiya and Xtracrylix and both look better to me for the post-war color (Xtracrylix in particular). I cannot comment on my observations on Colourcoats as I have not used them but kudos for being the only one to offer more than just 1-2 shades. Suffice to say, this particular Corsair painted with the old Aeromaster colors looks spot on for a wartime color, and the contrast with the insignia blue looks almost exactly like one pic of an F4U-4 that I have on my page. https://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usn/garf4ubt.htm " There are a couple of other reasons the model paint manufacturers have had problems matching the Sea Blues. Most are working from the FS595 chips, which never accurately matched all three versions of the wartime colors. The other problem is that the formula for ANA 623 Glossy Sea Blue changed in 1947/48. The original color faded to quickly and was replaced with more resilient pigments. When the US Navy gave modelers the old stocks of ANA paint chips in the 1960s/70s, some of us got the 1944 card-stock chip of ANA 623, while others got the 1948 metal replacement chips. I can well remember the arguments back then, arguments that arose because we were working from different standards! Cheers, Dana" Note, the "tri color scheme" has three blues, not two, using a mix of the ANA606 semi gloss and ANA607 Non-Specular Sea Blue, again, Dana to the rescue "The scheme is actually four colors - white, Intermediate Blue, Semi-gloss Sea Blue (atop the wings and horizontal tail), and Non-Specular Sea Blue (atop the fuselage and on leading edges of the wings and stabs). The last two colors differ in more than the gloss factor - non-spec is distinctly grayer and lighter than the semi-gloss. I generally refer to the scheme as 4-color to clarify the differences. There was a later version where all of the paints were glossy - it wasn't seen often, but it certainly was a three-color scheme. Cheers, Dana" Not usually visible in color pics, but for whatever reason, it is here I have the book with the chips The Official Monogram US Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide Vol 2 1940-1949 by John M Elliot Maj. USMC (Ret). There is a difference between ANA 606 and ANA 607, and ANA 623 is a reasonably close as well. Very hard colors to see clearly, as they are dark and 'smoky' so to see subtle changes in them is tricky, let alone match to model paints. (and stalled task) One last point, this image oif a very faded F4U-4 Corsair "F4U-4 of VBF-82 on USS Randolph (CV-15) c1946" is taken in 1946, in the Mediterranean, when the USN was being run down. I did PM you this a couple of days ago, no response as yet, so posting before I forget. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 This an excellent upgrade of your listings. it includes all the FAA colors from WW2 to the modern era. This took a lot of work and it shows. Your listing of the WW2 USAAF and USN/USMC interior greens is very good. Again, thank you for your work. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjboyle Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Was using the direct links at the start of this thread and they stopped working form when I last used then recently, so backtracked the URL and got the index page with all the links: http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/index.php Awesome work - thanks 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 @Phantome just a heds-up: the links from http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_rafww2 give a 404 error - but I love the general layout of the site PS: I like the Ghost avatar, some of my friends (mostly of the Goth persuasion) are great fans.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastimic Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 This is hilarious, I was sitting here wondering about the colour of planes as I get more into building. I come across this wonderful thread. But, it's nothing but 404 click bate...please fix it. Seems it's a winner. My only question. Are you going to do French and Italian, maybe Japanese? My biggest concern is interior colours. So I was quite sad to see the links do not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 11 hours ago, Plastimic said: This is hilarious, I was sitting here wondering about the colour of planes as I get more into building. I come across this wonderful thread. But, it's nothing but 404 click bate...please fix it. Seems it's a winner. My only question. Are you going to do French and Italian, maybe Japanese? My biggest concern is interior colours. So I was quite sad to see the links do not work. Yes, some of the links on that page don't work, but you can scroll all the way down the page and see everything, including the interior colours. There are no other airforces mentioned on that page as it's titled: Aircraft Colors and Camouflage, Royal Air Force (World War II) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 I am getting the "404 not found" notice as well on all the links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 /nerd-mode on Strictly speaking, the link works - it's the anchors on the same page that are supposed to take you to the subsections that aren't rewritten yet. /nerd-mode off The main http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/index.php links to the specific articles also function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Clarke Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Does anyone know what has happened to this wonderful resource? www.theworldwars.net appears to be unreachable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markh-75 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I haven’t been on it for a while myself but it would be a shame if it was gone.😳 Its a brilliant for colour and marking research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 nxdomain.....it's gone....😔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Use the links posted on the first page as a search term on the wayback machine site. https://web.archive.org/ regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Hi. Tried all those links/sites, still getting error 404. Using Chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 On 7/27/2022 at 4:38 AM, JackG said: Use the links posted on the first page as a search term on the wayback machine site. Tried using the wayback site Jack, but all I got was calendar about updates, couldn't connect to an archived version. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 web.archive.org link for the most recent snapshot: https://web.archive.org/web/20210812050827/http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/ 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 That last link worked thx. Thx for all that effort. Huge task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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